Seeking advice on finding a new style...

[Elric of Grans]

I have a short martial arts history, but have fallen rather out of practice. I am wanting to get back into training, but could use a little advice on what style to follow.

I previously studied Karate --- a small school that is an Enshin derivative --- where I trained quite hard for three years. In that time, I found sabaki/sabaki-gaeshi techniques more enjoyable than the strike techniques, though I did enjoy both aspects. The philosophical aspects where also enjoyable. Obviously, I thrived on the discipline too! It was a highly competitive school with a busy tournament schedule, though I never entered any myself. In the last few months, however, I had to significantly reduce the frequency and intensity of my trained. This was due to joint troubles, primaryly in the shoulders, elbows and knees. Pre-existing issues, but they were beginning to cause me considerable pain when training. Soon after, I needed to move out of town due to work, was unable to continue the style I had been studying and did not have the time to properly dedicate to something new. When the time presented itself, I had simply turned lazy. I feel it is about time I stopped being lazy and got back into things!

My joints are fine most of the time now --- back to how they were before I was training at least --- but I am concerned that the kind of stress Karate training caused would quickly aggravate them once again. I also have a pre-existing back issue, though I found training significantly *improved* it, presumably from strengthening the back muscles. I would like to get some measure of fitness and strength back, but I am not thinking anything too dramatic. I am not too interested in competition either. Sparring within the school would be fine, but tournaments would be right out. Philosophical/spiritual aspects would also be a big plus, but are not essential. I have a naturally heavy build and bulk up easier than most (I used to be a 175cm/100Kg super heavy weight), but am not so well suited to moving that bulk around quickly. I used to be able to do it, but it tired me quickly.

I have considered Judo as a possible option. This is largely because of how I enjoyed the sabaki techniques in the past. I am a little concerned that it could aggravate the joint issues again, however (opinions on this would be welcome). It also seems highly competition-driven, which is something of a negative point for me. I have half considered Iaido too. I saw it being practised years ago (when I was a poor student who could never hope to afford the costs) and was fascinated. The main negative is that I am not sure it would have any real fitness benefit (based on what I saw, at least). The classes are only at awful times too (Kendo gets the `prime time' classes in the dojo), which would make it difficult to get to.

I am very open to suggestions outside these two. I fully expect there are plenty of things I do not know about the variety of styles out there!

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Elric,

Probably the best thing is to really get down to what you want out of a martial arts experience. Your list here covers a range of things that you have experienced, but doesn't really give me a good idea of what you want from your training (just a few things that you don't want). Normally I'd ask what is available in your area, but, well, it's my area too, so I probably have a good idea!

What I typically ask potential students is a) what they want from the training, and b) what they want to get good at. These two questions, even more than what their background in the arts is, gives me a good idea as to whether or not they would benefit from being in my classes, or if I can suggest another system or school that is better in their particular case. So if you can answer those, we can start to get some idea of what is going to work for you.... and, being local to you, I may be able to suggest one or two things that you aren't aware of.

 

[terryl965]

Write down what you are looking for and then look into what is available and then go and visit those schools and see which one fits your needs.

 

[Elric of Grans]

I thought I had included what I was looking for. Obviously I never got around to that paragraph! Sorry about that.

First and foremost, I am looking to build up my fitness, flexibility and strength again. By strength I do not mean bench-press 120Kg. If my back muscles strengthen enough that my back issues go away again, I will be happy. Since I found sabaki techniques more enjoyable than strikes when practising Karate, I guess I prefer soft techniques over hard. I also seem to prefer tradition and ceremony over just getting down with the training (eg tying the gi and belt the correct way, entering the dojo the correct way and greeting the sparring opponent the correct way appeals more to me than hopping into a ring however suits me best and tapping gloves with my partner with a `boo-yah'). Practicality is definitely very important to me. In tournaments, I would see people from a variety of different Karate backgrounds. Some clearly focused on what did the most damage, others combined defence with offence, but some schools seemed to focus on what looked good... even if it was an awful choice practically (eg starting every single round with a flying kick). Self-defence would be good, but is not critical; meditation/philosophy is similarly something I would appreciate, but is not critical. Probably pretty standard, but we were a pretty social bunch when I was studying Karate (meet up and chat before and after class, get-togethers for dinner, etc), so I would like to get that back again too (again, probably not that unusual).

As Chris would know, my local area seems to have every martial art I have ever heard of (and a handful I had not previously heard of), so I have a very wide selection available to me. Any popular/common martial art seems to have multiple schools in very short distance from my place. Spoilt for choice, I believe we can call it.

Was this what you were looking for, or were you looking for something more specific than this?

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi Elric,

Well, that's getting closer.... Let's see if I can sum up, okay?

1) First and foremost, you are looking at fitness and flexibility. Particularly something that can help your back.

2) You are wanting something with a sense of tradition and structure.

3) You are wanting something that has more grappling than striking (if I'm reading that correctly, the term "sabaki" simply means movement, sometimes manipulation, and often refers to footwork. But as you are contrasting it with the striking aspects of Karate, I get the feeling you mean stand-up grappling here?).

4) From the terms you are using, you are more drawn to the Japanese systems.

Well, if this is the case, there are a few things I might suggest. My first choice, given this list, would be something very traditional, focused on grappling, but including a few weapons (including Iai, which you were "half considering"), and can help with fitness and certainly flexibility if trained properly. It's a Koryu Jujutsu system known as the Hontai Yoshin Ryu, taught by David Montebello, who is a fantastic teacher. Their website is: www.hontaiyoshinryu.com.au and a little look at group is:

Now, the downside is the "practicality" of such a system. For that you may want to look to something a little more "modern", including the various X-Kan groups (Melbourne actually has Bujinkan, Genbukan, and Jinenkan, as well as us, who are the original schools in Australia, but now independant of the Bujinkan). Fitness will be focused on differently from school to school, though, for example I tell students to join a gym for strength/fitness, and a yoga or pilates class for flexibility (highly recommended in any case, really!). Or there's Systema groups around, a Judo could be a good idea, there's Aikido as well, I could go on and on, really.... Add to all of this a few more "hidden" koryu groupings around. For example, I train in a small semi-official study group for a particular Koryu Kenjutsu system, at present there are about three of us, and we don't advertise. But if someone is serious, they may be invited to join in a session, to see if they fit.

Realistically at this point, I'd probably suggest going along to a few classes around yourself, and get a feel for what you like. Any questions on them, let me know, and I'll do what I can to answer or help.

 

[Elric of Grans]

Sabaki techniques are not necessaryly grappling. Movement (especially moving into blind-spots), redirection, grabs, throws, locks; just about anything other than straight-up strikes. The strike techniques I learned are ultimately derived from Kyokushin, but Ashihara-kanchou added Sabaki to the reportior. I believe Sabaki techniques in Ashihara Kai/Enshin Kai were derived from Judo, Jujitsu and Aikido, though my history knowledge could be flawed here.

I use the Japanese termanology because that is what I know (with my Karate background): I am actually completely open to non-Japanese styles.

Thank you, you have given me some good starting points. Indeed, I have never even heard of Systema before! As you say, the next step is to start looking at individual schools and classes, but this should help narrow the options down considerably.

 

[Carol]

Hi Elric, welcome to MartialTalk!

Try taking a look at an American Kenpo school to see if it is to your liking.

There is some traditional structure to the art (wearing a gi, tying a belt the proper way, bowing on and off the mat), but not overly eastern such as bowing to a Kamidama or using non-English terms.

There is a lot of striking, but there is also a lot of manipulation as well.

Many people give the old-timers in Kenpo a good bit of criticism for being very overweight. However, when I was actively training in Kenpo, I was in the best shape of my life. I was very fit (20 pounds thinner than where I am now...LOL), very strong, and with a ton of energy.

Good luck with your journey, wherever it takes you.

 

[Chris Parker]

Hey Elric,

Glad to help. Let's see, if you were with the Ashihara organisation in Melbourne, were you under Karl Longley out of interest?

And Carol, there's really very little presence of American Kenpo here, most schools would only refer to themselves as "Kenpo", or "Kenpo Karate". I only know of one or two schools in Melbourne, but I think there's a few more in Sydney.

 

[Carol]

There are two that I know of in the Melbourne area:

Mr. Tony Billman's Australian Kenpo Concepts:
http://www.australiankenpoconcepts.com/

There is also a Jeff Speakman school lead by Mr. Tony Angus:
http://www.jeffspeakman.com.au/home.asp


Jeff Speakman's Kenpo 5.0 differs from other American Kenpo in that it incorporates a good bit of groundfighting...this may not be the thing for someone that is not interested in doing groundfighting.

 

[Chris Parker]

Yep, they're the two that I know of as well (although there may be another around...). I was more thinking that a search for "American Kenpo" may not yield results as they aren't really listed as such here. But that is really a tiny presence in Melbourne... we have more parkour groups than Kenpo schools from what I've come across. And certainly more of almost every other common system (as well as a fairly broad range of Koryu systems) than Kenpo, as the more common nam here would be simply "Karate".

 

[Elric of Grans]

Thank you for the suggestion, Carrol.

Chris, I was studying in an Enshin-derived school (a grandchild of Ashihara Kai, I guess), so had no *direct* association with Ashihara Kai. I was also not in Melbourne then either.