Scott Olsen: Marine Hero. Not.

[Bill Mattocks]

Scott Olsen, the Marine veteran of two tours of Iraq, was hit by a projectile thrown by person or persons unknown as he protested in Oakland, California. To many, he has become the face of the 'Occupy' movement, and his story has also rallied veterans to take to the streets today in support of him.

This guy:

http://web.archive.org/web/20100507023132/http://www.ihatethemarinecorps.com/

Former owner of "ihatethemarinecorps.com," where he waxed enthusiastic about his hatred of the Marine Corps.

Some have said this is not him - after all, the website was registered in "Milan, Illinois" and the injured Scott Olsen is from Wisconsin. They claim this is a right-wing hack-job and had to have been another Scott Olsen.

Except, oops...

http://qctimes.com/news/local/man-i...cle_ded24d32-01ef-11e1-be64-001cc4c002e0.html

Scott Olsen grabbed his sleeping bag and waved goodbye to his roommate, Miguel Aleman of Moline, before heading to Madison, Wis., in February to protest Gov. Scott Walker's bill to end collective bargaining for public employees.

"He believed one voice can make a difference," Aleman said Friday.

Countless voices are now shouting Olsen's name. "We are all Scott Olsen" has become the overnight battlecry of the Occupy Wall Street movement.

The former Marine, who spent a year living in Moline not long after returning from Iraq, was injured in a demonstration Tuesday in Oakland, Calif.

A projectile hit him in the head and fractured his skull, leaving him at first in critical condition in a hospital. His family holds officers responsible for what's being considered Occupy Wall Street's first major clash with police.

Thousands have viewed online videos of the incident, including one that shows an officer toss a flash grenade into a small crowd trying to help Olsen as he lay motionless in the street.

Olsen was upgraded to fair condition Thursday, the same day Aleman heard from mutual friends about what happened.

"They said he was injured during a peaceful protest," Aleman said.

Aleman isn't surprised Olsen joined the movement. When he read about last Saturday's Occupy Quad-Cities demonstration, he said Olsen would have participated had he still lived in Moline.

Moline? It's 7 miles from Milan. I used to live in East Moline. And I can use Google Maps. Yeah, same Scott Olsen.

"He just wanted to be Scott Olsen," Aleman said. "He wasn't typical of someone coming out of the service. He wasn't stern and rigid. He was free and did his own thing."

In July, Olsen moved from Moline to Daly, Calif. where he is a systems analyst at OPSWAT, a San Francisco IT firm.

Yeah, I'd say he wasn't typical of someone coming out of the Marine Corps. Most of us don't start websites claiming to hate the Marine Corps.

But why would he hate the Marine Corps?

Olsen, a Wisconsin native, graduated from Onalaska (Wis.) High School in 2005 and joined the Marines. He served two tours in Iraq and earned seven medals, including the Navy-Marine Corps Achievement Medal. He was discharged in November 2009 after reaching the rank of lance corporal.

Oh dear. Four years of service, and two tours of Iraq and he's a LANCE CORPORAL?

There's a term we Marines use for those folks. ********. You make LCpl automatically at about a year and a half, most people make it faster than that. If you're not an NCO by year three, you're doing something VERY wrong. And that's in peacetime.

Yeah, big hero. I'm ashamed he's a Marine. But even Marines have their 10%. By the way, the term '10%' was coined in the Marine Corps a lot longer ago than the current 99%. It means the 10% who can't hack it. Scott would be a non-hacker. There's your hero, OWS.

 

[Steve]

Did this guy receive an honorable discharge after serving in the US Marines for four years? Did he serve two tours in Iraq?

It seems to me that he has earned the right to hold an opinion. He served his country. Character assassination strikes me as defensive and unnecessary. If you disagree with him, that's cool. I can appreciate that. Knock yourself out. But until I see otherwise, he did fulfill his military commitment. He kept his word, served twice in a combat zone, and received an honorable discharge.

I've always had a problem with the idea that ALL soldiers are heroes. I don't believe that to be true. But EVERY soldier who volunteers and serves their term deserves our respect. Honoring our troops rings hollow when we only honor the ones who agree with us and defame the ones who don't.

Edit to add: And I believe that this is amplified when the criticism comes from people who are not veterans. I know you were a Marine, Bill, but as often as not, people who have never worn a uniform presume to decide which soldiers deserve respect and which don't. Burns my ***, I tell ya!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Did this guy receive an honorable discharge after serving in the US Marines for four years? Did he serve two tours in Iraq?

To the first question, I do not know. Some online have said he received an OTH. But I have no information on that. As to the two tours thing, yes, it appears he did.

It seems to me that he has earned the right to hold an opinion. He served his country. Character assassination strikes me as defensive and unnecessary. If you disagree with him, that's cool. I can appreciate that. Knock yourself out. But until I see otherwise, he did fulfill his military commitment. He kept his word, served twice in a combat zone, and received an honorable discharge.

I agree with that. He has every right to hold an opinion, even one I disagree with, and he did serve his country. I get to have an opinion, also.

I've always had a problem with the idea that ALL soldiers are heroes. I don't believe that to be true. But EVERY soldier who volunteers and serves their term deserves our respect. Honoring our troops rings hollow when we only honor the ones who agree with us and defame the ones who don't.

I would be defaming him if I said something that was not true. I believe it is true that he founded "I hate the marine corps dot com," and I believe it's fair game to mention that. I also noted that a local newspaper stated he served four years and was discharged as a L/Cpl. Being a Marine myself, I have some insight into how that happens. So that's my opinion right there.

Edit to add: And I believe that this is amplified when the criticism comes from people who are not veterans. I know you were a Marine, Bill, but as often as not, people who have never worn a uniform presume to decide which soldiers deserve respect and which don't. Burns my ***, I tell ya!

When he is put on a pedestal, he becomes fair game to be knocked off it. He is, whether he asked to be or not, the 'face of OWS' according to many newspapers and media services around the country. And much is made of his service in the Marine Corps and his two tours in Iraq. OK, fair enough. But if that's fair, then it is also fair to note that he apparently HATES the Marine Corps. Which he is fully allowed to do; but that's hardly a rallying cry for veterans, I would think.

I'm not the one lofting him on my shoulders as the heroic face of OWS. But since he's been hoisted up there, let's talk about him a bit, warts and all.

 

[Flying Crane]

I know a number of people who do not hold fond memories of their time in the service. Some people are glad to get the hell out of it.

Does that justify starting a website about his hatred of it? I dunno, I don't know what his experience was, I don't know if he "couldn't hack it" or whatever. But as Steve mentioned, he has a right to an opinion.

 

[Steve]

To the first question, I do not know. Some online have said he received an OTH. But I have no information on that. As to the two tours thing, yes, it appears he did.
I agree with that. He has every right to hold an opinion, even one I disagree with, and he did serve his country. I get to have an opinion, also.

Agreed, and I would never say otherwise.

I would be defaming him if I said something that was not true. I believe it is true that he founded "I hate the marine corps dot com," and I believe it's fair game to mention that. I also noted that a local newspaper stated he served four years and was discharged as a L/Cpl. Being a Marine myself, I have some insight into how that happens. So that's my opinion right there.

LOL. Okay. Sorry. Most of your post is speculation.

Presuming that every bit of your educated guesswork is correct, he served his country. He is decorated. We don't know whether he was other than honorable or honorable. He was a Marine for four years. As far as I'm concerned, until we find out he did something to warrant otherwise, he deserves our respect as much as any other decorated veteran. In my opinion.

When he is put on a pedestal, he becomes fair game to be knocked off it. He is, whether he asked to be or not, the 'face of OWS' according to many newspapers and media services around the country. And much is made of his service in the Marine Corps and his two tours in Iraq. OK, fair enough. But if that's fair, then it is also fair to note that he apparently HATES the Marine Corps. Which he is fully allowed to do; but that's hardly a rallying cry for veterans, I would think.

And again, it just strikes me as self serving. As you say, he is entitled to hold any opinion about the Marine Corps he wishes, because he served his tour. It's not as though he was courtmartialled. Whether that's a rallying cry for veterans isn't your call. It's clear that it's not a rallying cry to you. For what it's worth, for me, either. As with the Tea Party, there are things I can agree with. There is common ground I can find with OWS and with the Tea Partiers. But in practice, I disagree with both.

But it seems to have become a rallying cry for someone. Which is why people who disagree with him are actively working to defame him. Just imply that he wasn't a great soldier. Facts don't matter. We have speculation. It's enough. We don't have to prove he was a poor soldier. Just cast enough doubt and that's fine.

I'm not the one lofting him on my shoulders as the heroic face of OWS. But since he's been hoisted up there, let's talk about him a bit, warts and all.

Truth is fine. He may be a despicable character. But based on what I've seen, he's earned his opinion.

What's funny to me (as in chuckle funny) is that I expect you'll look for some damning evidence now. Were he a "good" soldier posting "Semper Fi" and talking about how great his life in the Corps was, I just honestly believe that the entire tenor of this thread would be different. It's not whether he's a darling of the OWS. IT's because he's not the right kind of veteran for you.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

What's funny to me (as in chuckle funny) is that I expect you'll look for some damning evidence now. Were he a "good" soldier posting "Semper Fi" and talking about how great his life in the Corps was, I just honestly believe that the entire tenor of this thread would be different. It's not whether he's a darling of the OWS. IT's because he's not the right kind of veteran for you.

Let me put it this way. At the moment, like it or not, he represents two things. Marine veteran and Face of OWS. As much as OWS wishes to embrace him, I am horrified to find he is a Marine and I in no way identify with him; nor do I want people thinking of him when they think of Marines. So if it's OK for OWS to embrace him, it's just as OK for me to loathe him. And OK for both of us to talk about it.

As to what kind of soldier he was...he wasn't. That's the Army. Marines are Marines. Solders serve in the Army.

 

[Josh Oakley]

The canister was still aimed at his head. He was just standing there. Then they fired teargas at the people who went to help him. Even if he wasn't exemplary as a marine, what happened to him was obscene.Of all the articles I have rear about this guy, not one of them calls him a hero. They say he is a two time war vet. We did his job, served his country, went home. But in any event, ad hominim personal attacks do nothing to mitigate the shameful actions of the police department that day.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Of all the articles I have rear about this guy, not one of them calls him a hero. They say he is a two time war vet. We did his job, served his country, went home.

Do they really?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ar-hero-Scott-Olsen-badly-wounded-police.html

Iraq war hero badly wounded by police in Oakland is unable to speak ... as growing number of veterans join the protests

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/02/us-usa-wallstreet-olsen-idUSTRE7A17TB20111102

Occupy protesters have held him up as a hero.

http://rt.com/usa/news/olsen-occupy-vigil-oakland-031/

With wounded veteran Scott Olsen unable to speak following an assault from police during a raid on Occupy Oakland earlier this week, thousands of Americans across the country are lending their voice to the movement to do the talking for the hero.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-canister-protesters-helping-Scott-Olsen.html

Iraq war hero critically injured in Oakland protests 'awake and lucid' in hospital as demonstrators vow to shut the city down with general strike

But in any event, ad hominim personal attacks do nothing to mitigate the shameful actions of the police department that day.

First of all, I have said nothing about what happened that day. I don't know if the police injured Olsen or if it was something thrown by someone else. I have no idea.

Second, I want to make sure I understand you. It's OK that OWS makes him their hero - and yes, despite your statements to the contrary, I think it's clear that he's being called that - and uses his Marine Corps service and photos of him in uniform to make him that; but it is NOT OK for me to point out that he got kicked out of the Corps, that he created a website called I hate the Marine Corps, etc? In other words, as long as it's something OWS thinks is good, then it is fine, but if it's not pro-OWS, then it's bad? Is that it? Am I clear on that?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/02/us-usa-wallstreet-olsen-idUSTRE7A17TB20111102

Olsen received an "administrative discharge" from the service in late 2009, according to his uncle George Nygaard, though the precise reasons for it could not be confirmed. Such a discharge can result from any number of behavioral or disciplinary issues.

Yeah. He got booted out of the Corps. How does that square with this?

If they want to celebrate him as someone who stood up for what he believed in and got smacked in the head for it (assuming the police did it) then great and dandy. War hero? He was an IT guy who got tossed out of the Corps. There's your war hero. But it's bad form to say that, eh? Well, I'm a Marine, I can say it if I want to. I didn't get booted out.

 

[seasoned]

I don't think service to ones country should be used to garner support for, or add validity to some of the antics happening within the OWS. This man was hurt, thats it, and I feel bad for him. But, to politicize this, and fabracate facts about his past service, does, deface all who served. Having served myself, there is a lot to be said for an "honorable" discharge. At least in my day there was.

 

[Big Don]

Solders serve in the Army.

Solders hold things together, soldiers serve in the army.

 

[Big Don]

IMHO the saying:"Once a Marine, always a Marine" Does NOT apply to people with I hate the Marines websites and OTH discharges...

 

[Sukerkin]

Just dropping by to commend Bill and Steve for their ability to hold different viewpoints on a subject and still converse with civility - my compliments gentlemen :bows:.

As to the Solder vs Soldier conundrum, the I's have it . I wasn't going to bring it up, Don, but, seeing as you did, a little humour never hurt when dealing with a serious topic .

 

[Josh Oakley]

I stand corrected. I hadn't seen those articles.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I stand corrected. I hadn't seen those articles.

Thanks, Josh. I also had not seen the details of his separation from the Marine Corps until I happened to be looking for it last night; it's a new story. All I had seen before was rumors, so I tried to avoid saying that he was definitely kicked out of the Marines until I saw the news story last night quoting his uncle confirming the story.

We may disagree, but I appreciate your gentlemanly manner. Thanks again.

 

[Carol]

I'm just curious, is a discharge for medical reasons also considered OTH?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I'm just curious, is a discharge for medical reasons also considered OTH?

No, that's Honorable.

Honorable - Did your time, kept your nose clean. If released early (for example, medical), had a good record until that time.
General Under Honorable Conditions - Administratively separated (for a variety of reasons, such as positive result on drug test, DUI, being overweight, etc) but with service not up to the standards of the Marine Corps. Not terribly bad, just not good. An 'f'up' in other words.
Other Than Honorable - Voluntarily accepted to avoid being Court-Martied
Bad Conduct Discharge - Court-Martialed
Dishonorable Discharge - Court-Martialed

OTH is basically what people get when they have utterly f'd up their military enlistment and just want out quickly and the service agrees it would be best for all concerned, but they have not say robbed a bank or punched out an officer or whatever, so they are not quite to the point of being sent to prison.

 

[Steve]

Glad more information came out. Sounds like you were right, and I'm glad for that. I do want to point out that it doesn't change the point I was trying to make.

I wasn't suggesting that this guy is or isn't a war hero. The point is, based on what you admit was a very cursory understanding of this guy, you filled in a lot of gaps, created a fictional account of his service record based on a few facts and a lot of speculation. In this case you happen to be right, which is good. But in general, I don't believe this is a great way to go about things.

For what it's worth, I'll freely admit I am particularly sensitive where veterans are concerned. I see this all the time, and have myself been accused of being the wrong kind of veteran on these boards.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Glad more information came out. Sounds like you were right, and I'm glad for that. I do want to point out that it doesn't change the point I was trying to make.

I wasn't suggesting that this guy is or isn't a war hero. The point is, based on what you admit was a very cursory understanding of this guy, you filled in a lot of gaps, created a fictional account of his service record based on a few facts and a lot of speculation. In this case you happen to be right, which is good. But in general, I don't believe this is a great way to go about things.

For what it's worth, I'll freely admit I am particularly sensitive where veterans are concerned. I see this all the time, and have myself been accused of being the wrong kind of veteran on these boards.

Fair enough, I accept your criticism as valid. I think I might be a tad spring-loaded where it comes to Marines. I'm not one that says "Once a Marine, always a Marine, except for this guy that I hate." I accept he's a Marine. It chaps my *** that he's the kind of person he appears to be. But more than that, I think I'm unhappy that OWS is tying their 'image' to the notion of "Marine War Hero." I am a Marine, and I *do not like* OWS. I don't like the notion that OWS is wearing Marine Dress Blues. It's not theirs to claim.

 

[MaxiMe]

Nice work following this story Bill, and nice to see such a civil discussion on a topic. :bow:

 

[Steve]

Fair enough, I accept your criticism as valid. I think I might be a tad spring-loaded where it comes to Marines. I'm not one that says "Once a Marine, always a Marine, except for this guy that I hate." I accept he's a Marine. It chaps my *** that he's the kind of person he appears to be. But more than that, I think I'm unhappy that OWS is tying their 'image' to the notion of "Marine War Hero." I am a Marine, and I *do not like* OWS. I don't like the notion that OWS is wearing Marine Dress Blues. It's not theirs to claim.

I get it. And I'm also guilty of it, to be honest. Everyone has these hot button issues. We all have blind spots. Key isn't to be perfect. It's to try and make the blind spot as small as possible. That you acknowledge you're "a tad spring-loaded when it comes to Marines" speaks volumes about your character. I hope that I'm as willing to do the same in similar circumstances.