School Situation

[7starmantis]

I have been reading some of the other threads in other forums about people's schools they attend. Almost eveyone is limited to a certain number of classes a week, or has a contract to sign for 6 months - 2years at the begining. My school has none of these, I can attend any class, at any time if I want to. Two days a week, I can go in the morning and in the evening. I also have no contract to sign. Do your CMA school do this as well? AM I just at a school that doesn't opperate that way ? Or is it a philosophy of CMA that makes the difference?

One thing that has been bothering me alot about MA schools in general is that most seem so commercialized! I understand the business behind it, in order to make a living, but I personally hate the high prices, the pushing to sell things from the school, the price on workshops, ect. Has anyone else had this feeling? Am I just being overly sensative about it? I have no problem paying for what I receive, it is well worth it to me, maybe that is the issue, charge enough to get serious students. I don't know, just something I was pondering and thought I would post it here, for opinions. Lord knows this forum needs it!


7sm

 

[Colin Thomas]

I don't think the attitude to charging is based purely on the art you study. Rather the people who are running the school(s).

I study Taekwondo in the UK. There is no contract and once you've paid the monthly fee you can attend as many classes as you like - every day if you wish!

Although the school does sell merchandise it really isn't pushed at you constantly. Maybe we're both lucky in our choice of schools!

 

[Cruentus]

I think there are 2 things that have lowered the quality of MA in America. They are 1. Commercialism, and 2. rank. For many schools I feel that $$ becomes more of a priority then quality, and for the students rank becomes more of a priority then skill.

I run a program for Modern Arnis and combative MA out of World gym. I have no contracts, and no sign up fee's. They don't pay by month, they pay for 8 sessions w/ a 60 day expiration date. The only thing resembling a "start-up fee" that I require is the equipment fee for 2 sticks and a training dagger, of which they keep.

Instructors need to make there living, but they don't need to sell their souls by commercializing their art to the point where quality goes in the toilet.

Just my opinion!

 

[lvwhitebir]

I think about it this way. Most schools limit the number of classes you can attend for two reasons:
1) Keep the number of students per class down to a reasonable level. I can only offer 1 class per day, since I offer basically 4 different disciplines, and letting everyone workout whenever they want would be impossible.
2) Keep beginning students from burning out. I'm occasionally asked by new students if they can come in more often. I'll sometimes let them, but have found that they go strong for a month or two and then they're gone because it got too demanding (at least that's their excuse). Slow and steady wins the race.

OK, everyone talks about how bad the money aspect is... but, have you ever looked into other things, like learning to play the piano? It can be around $75 to $100 a month *and* has far fewer benefits than martial arts. $75 is only about $2.50 a day. Isn't it worth that much to you?

To run my school, it costs me about $4000 a month. At $75 per month I need at least 53 students to just break even. If I pull it way down to what some people seem to want (say $40), then I need 100 students. I'm currently working 14 hours a day (day job plus the school) to break even. If I want to work at the school full time, which I have to or my wife will absolutly kill me (I have no life), I'll need far more money to survive and pay my mortage and bills. Also, what would a professional in any other skill make after say 10-15 years of schooling? I charge what I think I'm worth and temper it to what the market will bear.

Contracts are one method that school owners can use to level their income. For example, if you paid only when you come to class, you might not get paid many nights. If you have no contracts at all, you might not have any students over the summer when they all go on vacation. You still have bills to pay so what are you going to do. To me, the payment is not for the time spent in class, but for the knowledge that the student is gaining in their training, whether they come to all their classes or not.

On the other side, contracts allow the student to lock in a payment rate for a period of time. Without it, the school is allowed to up the rate as often and as much as desired. What would you do if you came in at $30 a month and then 30 days later found that it was $90 per month?

Commercialism is what will let me work full time at the school. That means its a business, not just a hobby. I love doing it, but I can't work 75 hours just to keep it. In most countries you have to earn a living at it and that means making money and spending money. Now, maybe there are legitimate complaints about the lowering of standards, but I don't believe it has anything to do with commercialism. I think it has to do with the world's expectations and how we present the arts to them.

 

[7starmantis]

Well, like I said in my post, I understand the business part of it. I have a business degree, so I totally understand it. I just think there are newer ways to go about it, thats all.

7sm

 

[Chiduce]

Maybe i need to raise the school fees. At most schools in my area, the fee is $80.00 or more. We train our students for 1/2 that. I was looking at a new school just opening in the area. Their fee was 35.00 per class for yoga + $60.00/month for the Kenpo and Jujitsu training.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

 

[Skarbromantis]

It all depends on the teacher, I train every Sunday from 1-4, one on one, I learn a form a month, with applications, no group stuff, just myself and my son and Sifu, very focused training, I pay 80 a month for both of us, others pay 50 a month but Sifu gives me a discount for the both of us.

His idea of training is very different, no yellow pages, no kid class, no adult class, one on one, then he sends you to go over what he just taught you, with a senior student, very small school, no contracts, he charge's just enough to cover his expense’s, one big family, very traditional, just the way I like it.


Skard1

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by Chiduce

Maybe i need to raise the school fees. At most schools in my area, the fee is $80.00 or more. We train our students for 1/2 that. I was looking at a new school just opening in the area. Their fee was 35.00 per class for yoga + $60.00/month for the Kenpo and Jujitsu training.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!

It's funny. I recently read a book called "Influence" or something of the sort. It had a story in it about a guy who did dog grooming as well as something related for a living, charging a very low rate, of course thinking that people would flock to him instead of his competition. Unfortunately, the dog grooming side wasn't going good and he decided to drop it so he raised the rates to force people to go somewhere else. The result... his grooming business actually doubled. People saw the higher rate as higher quality.

Like it or not, Americans at least relate price with quality. If it wasn't, most of us would be driving more Kia's instead of Mercedes.

There are pros and cons to a higher price, but if you offer the quality of training, you can demand the higher fees. My solution is to start at just below where I think I want to be and then raise the rates every 6 months or so. As the school grows and as I gain knowledge and experience, I can ask for the higher rates. Then if there are deserving students that can't pay for some reason, I can barter with them for cleaning, teaching, etc. That way everybody wins.

WhiteBirch

 

[Cruentus]

I agree that instructors need to be compensated for there efforts, and that it should cost $$ for a quality product.

I also think that there is a difference between reasonable and unreasonable.

I think that what happends far to often is that schools become more marketing/money oriented then training oriented. The instructors are too busy reading business magazines on how to improve their martial arts "business," and worrying about how to improve their revenue, when they need to spend more time out on the floor training. Many of them then become more concerned with trying to make themselves look good, then actually being good. Many of the methods of gaining $$ that they use may be "business smart", only because they are outright scams.

Many of the schools that do this, to put it plainly, suck. They are rip-off artists who don't put out a quality product.

I just feel that if your not good enough to be successful running a martial arts school w/o scamming people, and entrapping them with hidden charges and other B.S., then don't run a martial arts school. Get a real job! :soapbox:

Disclaimer: I am just expressing the other side, and my fustrations with many of the schools that I see around me. This is NOT directed towards anyone on this forum. THANKS! :asian:

 

[Cthulhu]

Originally posted by lvwhitebir



It's funny. I recently read a book called "Influence" or something of the sort. It had a story in it about a guy who did dog grooming as well as something related for a living, charging a very low rate, of course thinking that people would flock to him instead of his competition. Unfortunately, the dog grooming side wasn't going good and he decided to drop it so he raised the rates to force people to go somewhere else. The result... his grooming business actually doubled. People saw the higher rate as higher quality.

WhiteBirch

I heard a similar story involving a Tae Kwon Do school. This school was pulling in all this yuppies who were willing to pay hundreds of dollars a month, not because the instruction was particularly good or anything, but simply because the rates led them to believe that they were getting high quality instruction.

A sucker is born every minute.

Cthulhu

 

[KennethKu]

If the instructor is good and honest, there is no reason why he/she should not adopt sound business practice to make the school be known to the public (ie advertising and marketing).

Sound business practice is not scamming. lol

 

[Cruentus]

Sound business practice is not scamming. lol

I agree!

Understand though, earlier I wasn't talking about simply marketing a product, I was really refering to scamming, and inflating oneself beyond what they really are, and what they have to offer.

 

[theneuhauser]

my instructor is able to level his rates by balancing evrything out with an online supply store. smart guy, we recently moved into a nice big training facility.

 

[7starmantis]

Originally posted by theneuhauser

my instructor is able to level his rates by balancing evrything out with an online supply store. smart guy, we recently moved into a nice big training facility.

Thats a smart move for an instructor. I'm building my sifu a website and an online store as we speak, hopefully it will be very beneficial to him.



7sm

 

[lvwhitebir]

Originally posted by PAUL

I agree that instructors need to be compensated for there efforts, and that it should cost $$ for a quality product.

I also think that there is a difference between reasonable and unreasonable.

I agree. Unfortunately its very hard to tell what's "reasonable" and what's not and what's a "quality product". Some say testing fees are unreasonable, some say not. Some say you should be able to attend as many classes as you like, some say not. Some say anything over $50 is unreasonable, period. There are no standards to go by. The Martial Arts are like any other product, you can get ripped off, or you can get the deal of a lifetime.

In my opinion, quality and cost are in the mind of the end consumer. One person's opinion will not necessarily match another's.

I think that what happends far to often is that schools become more marketing/money oriented then training oriented. The instructors are too busy reading business magazines on how to improve their martial arts "business," and worrying about how to improve their revenue, when they need to spend more time out on the floor training. Many of them then become more concerned with trying to make themselves look good, then actually being good. Many of the methods of gaining $$ that they use may be "business smart", only because they are outright scams.
[/QUOTE]

I understand your frustration. Many school owners leave the teaching to their students and they slowly deteriorate in their own abilities. It's sad, but a fact of life.

The owner's first responsibility is to the life of the school. That has many facets, whether improving the business side like learning how to advertise or "sell" better, learning a new art to attract a new customer base, or working harder at their current art to keep their current customer base. Usually the last one lags behind because they've already devoted so much of their time there and they need fresh ideas.

I would like a little more info from you on what you call outright scams. There are a lot of little things schools do to motivate people and create excess cash, such as Black Belt Clubs, seminars, private lessons, and so on. Are they necessary? No. Do they provide a good cost/benefit ratio? Sometimes. In the end, it's the perceived cost/benefit ratio that counts.

Is this what you're talking about or are there other things? It sounds like you may have been burned at one time.

Many of the schools that do this, to put it plainly, suck. They are rip-off artists who don't put out a quality product.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. My original comments were only against comments about "commercialism" being bad. By itself, it's not bad. It's the people who try to scam others that make it bad.

WhiteBirch

 

[7starmantis]

ITs not that I've been burned, I really never have, I guess begining when your 7 can do that for you. Its just that I am very traditional, and I hate to see Sifu's litteraly begging for money. Its degrading I think. I embarases me for them. Always saying here's your new catalog...oh, that will be 5 dollars please. I guess its just a feeling that I can't explain, but I have visited several places that give me that feel.



7sm

 

[Bod]

In England the whole McDojo thing is less of as problem. The standard seems to be between £3 and £6 a lesson, + membership fees. Many schools simply have higher fees for non-members.

Most people haven't got a clue about what they want from MA. So they go to Boxercise or Tae Bo. That is where the people who want to make money go to make money.

I have paid between $0 and £6 for lessons. The best training generally comes cheaper and with a more honest pricing structure.

Still, I got great Pak Mei from a guy who charged £5 a session, but with no membership fees. He'd sit in the corner smoking cigarettes, and teach everybody by prescription, with the senior students helping out, especially with translation, because his English was not exactly good. Everybody would continue practicing what they did last lesson, and the teacher would come over and correct their form, and give them new material if they'd been working hard at it.

Many schools charge by the month, and encourage you to turn up as much as possible. They usually have lots of space though.

I'd say the teaching generally gets better, or at least more demanding, the less it costs, but there are plenty of exceptions. I'd suggest trying a few out before sticking to anything. It's amazing how many people defend their style having seen or tried nothing else. Those sort of people deserve to be mugged by their teacher.