Forms - The Right Time

[7starmantis]

I am involved in a pretty good discussion on a mantis forum about forms, and I thought I would bring it up here. Many people begin teaching forms on the very first class, while others wait up to several months to start teaching actual forms. What is your take on this? When do you start teaching/learning forms and why do you think this is important?

I'll lead off. Many schools begin teaching a form on the first visit, but at my school we wait 8 weeks to begin learning actual forms. The first 8 weeks is our Intro class and it is bassically just getting the person used to moving around, doing stances, pushups, situps, just general physical conditioning. After 8 weeks of this and learning some partner drills and "blitz's" we start teaching some very basic forms.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Hmmmm

I've never been to a school that started teaching forms so early. In Black Tiger you don't start learning a form until about a year and a half into training. The first yr to yr and a half are spent on a proper horse stance (1hr horse stance) and many different conditioning and technique drills.

Then after you have the basic techniques down and the proper horse stance you learn the first form Hak Fu Ching Jhong (Black Tiger Front Dummy form) which is done entirely in a deep horse stance and contains five of the ten animals (Lion,Tiger,Crane,Snake,Dragon) used within Black Tiger.

jeff

 

[Fightback2]

Our school starts forms/kata about the 2nd class. First class is etiquette and stances. We move pretty quickly though.

 

[clfsean]

We start them about a month or so in... after at least 5 or so of the seed hands have been drilled to a degree, 8 basic horses & drills done plenty with them.

 

[7starmantis]

So on the flip side, when is the right time to begin fighting or "sparring"?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

That depends on the sifu & the student(s).

At our school, I've been there coming up on a year & still have done no sparring. I've already got 24 years in the arts, but sifu doesn't feel my skill level in sparring with Choy Lee Fut only is up to snuff yet. Once my CLF skills are up to snuff where I don't kickbox like the majority of MA schools (CMA included), then we put on gloves & go. But he wants us to only use what CLF brings to the table to fight with. He's not training kickboxers or san shou fighters, he's training CLF martial artists, so when we respond, we respond with CLF.

 

[7starmantis]

What do you think are the advantages of waiting this long to start fighting? Many would argue that you need to begin geting your body used to fighting with your style from day one. That putting it off so long would develop bad habits.

7sm

 

[clfsean]

What do you think are the advantages of waiting this long to start fighting? Many would argue that you need to begin geting your body used to fighting with your style from day one. That putting it off so long would develop bad habits.

7sm

Actually with his & my sigung's view on things, if you're going to study "X" martial art, you need to understand how to move the body for "X". You don't hear about Taiji people going into push hands on day 1. In Chen Village for example you don't get to Tui Shou until a couple of years in... after training & conditioning.

When either of them go, it's with CLF. No kickboxing... no boxing with the occasional CLF techniques... it's with CLF. That's how they learned & so that's how they teach. So until my CLF comes up to par, no contact.

Now you didn't say anything about doing paired drills... :ultracool

 

[7starmantis]

Actually with his & my sigung's view on things, if you're going to study "X" martial art, you need to understand how to move the body for "X". You don't hear about Taiji people going into push hands on day 1. In Chen Village for example you don't get to Tui Shou until a couple of years in... after training & conditioning.

When either of them go, it's with CLF. No kickboxing... no boxing with the occasional CLF techniques... it's with CLF. That's how they learned & so that's how they teach. So until my CLF comes up to par, no contact.

Now you didn't say anything about doing paired drills... :ultracool

I like that Partner drills are the basis of learning a technique in my opinion. We dont let our students "spar" or "free fight" for quite a while either, but we do many, many partner and paired drills. Just was curious as to your reasoning. So you guys use gloves and pads when you fight?

7sm

 

[clfsean]

I like that Partner drills are the basis of learning a technique in my opinion. We dont let our students "spar" or "free fight" for quite a while either, but we do many, many partner and paired drills. Just was curious as to your reasoning. So you guys use gloves and pads when you fight?

7sm

Yep... for all the good it does. A slipped Sow Choy is still a head remover... gloves or not... :viking3: :boxing:

 

[j_m]

I've been in schools that started students with forms on day one (or possibly 2 ) But I am now under the opinion that forms should be about the last thing a student learns. There is much more important foundational work that should be addressed before forms are introduced. An experienced martial artist "might" benefit from learning a form earlier on... but definatley not the beginning students. Unless it's just for show... which is about all it will be in the the beginning anyway.


And fighting/sparring? I'd have to say I pretty much agree with clfsean's comments. For the most part There are MANY bad habits that a student will pick up if fighting is done too early.




jm

 

[InvisibleFist]

We do forms from Day one. Well, day two actually, first you learn the basic drills, then we start on Lau Gar Kuen.


I've studied at other schools and I MUCH perfer it this way. The forms drill the movements and stances into you in a way that mindless repition of basics never will. Plus they are FUN!

 

[7starmantis]

I've studied at other schools and I MUCH perfer it this way. The forms drill the movements and stances into you in a way that mindless repition of basics never will. Plus they are FUN!

Your assuming two things. First that the many repition of forms is not mindless, and second that the repitition of drills is mindless. If the repitition is what makes it mindless, than the forms suffer the same fate. Drills and basics can be very "fun" and quite hard at times. Partner drills are core for developing skill.

7sm

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Partner drills are core for developing skill.

7sm

Correct!

We actually start basic partner drills from day one. It helps with having something to do while sitting in a horse stance (Or atleast trying to sit in a horse stance:uhyeah: )

But we do arm drills like three star arm banging (sam sing)

Then after about 6months of drills on various techniques we start to spar using those techniques we've drilled. My sifu belives that you should be able to fight and protect yourself very well with your basics ,even before you learn your first form.

But we never spar using gloves or any protection ,sifu says you must be able to withstand the pain. He says most ppl have never been hit because they use gloves and padding ,so when they get hit for real they can't deal with the pain.

I don't mind sparring that way i actually love it ,until i have to spar sifu:whip:

For a man in his mid 50's he's the fastest and most powerful person i've ever faced ,and that's all standing at 5'6" and 130lbs.

jeff

 

[clfsean]

Correct!

We actually start basic partner drills from day one. It helps with having something to do while sitting in a horse stance (Or atleast trying to sit in a horse stance:uhyeah: )

Partner drills are a little bit farther, but too far, from day one. Sifu believes in mechanics first, then contact.

But we do arm drills like three star arm banging (sam sing)

Must love the banging!!!

Then after about 6months of drills on various techniques we start to spar using those techniques we've drilled. My sifu belives that you should be able to fight and protect yourself very well with your basics ,even before you learn your first form.

Exactly... basics, basics, basics, basics... then a few more. In the branch of CLF I practice, all we have are basics. There's nothing hidden anywhere! It's all in the open & while a technique may be played this way one time & that way the next, it's still gonna be a mix of either our 10 seed punches/5 animals or one of the 6 kicks with one of the 8 horses. That's it!

But we never spar using gloves or any protection ,sifu says you must be able to withstand the pain. He says most ppl have never been hit because they use gloves and padding ,so when they get hit for real they can't deal with the pain.
I don't mind sparring that way i actually love it ,until i have to spar sifu:whip:

True... we use gloves at times so we can increase the contact gradually without doing serious damage & to remind us that we're not out to kill our partner, but like I said... a Sow Choy that slips will still remove your head... pads or not.

For a man in his mid 50's he's the fastest and most powerful person i've ever faced ,and that's all standing at 5'6" and 130lbs.

jeff

My sifu is 6'2" & 250... he moves like a guy half his size. My sigung is about 5'2" & 60 years old... moves as fast as my Sifu & hits way too hard for somebody his size.

 

[7starmantis]

We dont use gloves in our fighting because in mantis we use so many grabs and traps. Our strikes have so many palms, ridghands, eye strikes, etc. Its hard to really do any of that with gloves on. We start our fighting very, very slow. I mean almost like taiji slow. As you progress it speeds up and gets harder. We dont use feet for quite a while at first as well.

Its interesting to see the different training methods we all use!

7sm

 

[clfsean]

We dont use gloves in our fighting because in mantis we use so many grabs and traps. Our strikes have so many palms, ridghands, eye strikes, etc. Its hard to really do any of that with gloves on. We start our fighting very, very slow. I mean almost like taiji slow. As you progress it speeds up and gets harder. We dont use feet for quite a while at first as well.

Its interesting to see the different training methods we all use!

7sm

That's similar to us. In CLF we use the 5 animals plus our 10 seed punches so gloves can be a chore, but we deal. Right now, we're not gloved cause we're not running that fast right now. As far as feet go... ours are always in use since we use a lot of check steps & traps. Kicks are few & far between but stepping & controlling with our legs while hands rain bombs on top is part & parcel for us at times.

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

We dont use gloves in our fighting because in mantis we use so many grabs and traps. Our strikes have so many palms, ridghands, eye strikes, etc. Its hard to really do any of that with gloves on. We start our fighting very, very slow. I mean almost like taiji slow. As you progress it speeds up and gets harder. We dont use feet for quite a while at first as well.

Its interesting to see the different training methods we all use!

7sm

yeah ,i know what you mean.

We have 10 animals in Black Tiger ,so we are always using different animal fist techniques. We do the same with the drilling start slow and work your way up ,but since it's only three of us training with sifu we move very quickly.

Sifu always has to slow us down because we're always trying to go as fast as we can ,but your technique gets sloopy if you move too fast without proper technique.

We don't even work on any kicks at all except a short stop kick or shin type kick for the first 1 1/2 - 2yrs. So much of Black Tiger like alot of southern china styles is fist techniques. Although we practice every kick within northern and southern shaolin ,we rarely ever kick above the waist.

jeff

 

[Black Tiger Fist]

Sifu believes in mechanics first

Yeah my sifu is strict on them aswell ,must be perfect!!!

Must love the banging!!!

Of course!!!

Exactly... basics, basics, basics, basics... then a few more. In the branch of CLF I practice, all we have are basics. There's nothing hidden anywhere! It's all in the open & while a technique may be played this way one time & that way the next, it's still gonna be a mix of either our 10 seed punches/5 animals or one of the 6 kicks with one of the 8 horses. That's it!

Do you practice Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut?

I know they're all drills.

True... we use gloves at times so we can increase the contact gradually without doing serious damage & to remind us that we're not out to kill our partner, but like I said... a Sow Choy that slips will still remove your head... pads or not.

I know what you mean bro:whip:

My sifu is 6'2" & 250... he moves like a guy half his size. My sigung is about 5'2" & 60 years old... moves as fast as my Sifu & hits way too hard for somebody his size.

Yeah,

same with my sifu , i only wish i could've met my sigung

jeff

 

[clfsean]

Jeff... Hung Sing CLF