Saw a cop's duty belt today that's gonna give me nightmares....

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
175
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
So I'm sat down at my favorite lunchtime haunt just next door from my place of employment, and while I'm eating, A young LEO walks in to pick up an order of his own.

He must've been just out of Academy, could not have been older than at most 21, 22.

Being a firearms instructor, and carry permit holder, and thus possesssing a semiprofessional interest in such things, my eyes wander to his duty belt/holster, since whenever a law enforcement agency looks at something, so do I.

I thought I must have seen wrong at first, but a straightening press of the finger on my spectacles confirms it:

An absolute recipe for disaster.

Why?

Three things.

1) His sidearm is a fullsize Glock, either the model 17 (9mm) or 22 (.40 cal).Probably the .40 as that's the most common US cop caliber. For those of you unfamiliar with such matters, all of the Glock's safety features are internal, such that negligent/accidental discharges can virtually only occur by user error, but it has no externally activated measures, such as an external safety lever, or magazine disconect, such as would aid in foiling a snatch attempt. This is not *necessarily* a bad thing in and of itself provided one has an appropriate holster.

2) Only this kid most emphatically did not. It looked to me as if he had put a concealment holster on a duty rig: The holster was OPEN TOPPED, didn't even cover the rear sights, and had NO RETENTION STRAP, not even the merest thumb break. The trigger was covered, but if there was a tension screw near the trigger guard, I didn't see it, and a tension screw by itself is not IMO acceptable enough safety even for a concealment rig.

3) All this worn in the open on an exposed, clearly visible duty belt. Even his Taser had a strap for crying out loud!

This literally made my jaw drop open, ladies and gentlemen, and that does not happen very often!

Unless his department has added the aftermarket Cominolli safety to their Glocks, that's a match made in Hell!

I was very seriously considering popping off an email to that town's chief expressing my concern over this. Not because I wanna go "Oh, look how cool and savvy I am" but I wanted to tell him because I care. Because I don't want to see one of the Good Guys get killed over a preventable snatch attempt due to inexperienced gear selection.

I haven't said anything yet.

Should I?
 
OP
Andy Moynihan

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
175
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
Did you give him a good talking to? He may have his gun snatched and used on him if he's not more mindful.


I wanted to, quite badly, but am aware of the potentially negative results of a young LEO being told by a "civilian" ( remember he didn't know me from Adam, or what I knew) how to go about his business in front of other "civilians".

Me having once been a soldier I learned the value of addressing other soldiers' mistakes by going through their "chain of command" as it were. That's why I'm hoping some of the forum LEOs will chime in with guidance as to whether I should open a channel to the chief or whether it would go ignored.....
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
541
Location
NH
I haven't said anything yet.

Should I?

Yes. I could see letting it slide if you saw the officer at the range...after all, he's there to fire his guns. But this was when he was on-duty, in town.

"I was very seriously considering popping off an email to that town's chief expressing my concern over this. Not because I wanna go "Oh, look how cool and savvy I am" but I wanted to tell him because I care. Because I don't want to see one of the Good Guys get killed over a preventable snatch attempt due to inexperienced gear selection."

Can't say it much better than that.
 

Steve

Mostly Harmless
Joined
Jul 9, 2008
Messages
20,387
Reaction score
5,897
Location
Covington, WA
I'd echo the yes. It sounds as though you have very sound reasons for your concern.
 

SensibleManiac

Black Belt
Joined
Jun 6, 2007
Messages
556
Reaction score
14
Sending an email to the appropriate channels is not a bad idea.
Police learn from their mistakes as well, it's just better when it's not due to something happening or someone innocent getting hurt.
 

punisher73

Senior Master
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Messages
3,759
Reaction score
813
Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?

I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.
 
OP
Andy Moynihan

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
175
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?

I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.


It was not a SERPA, that much I am sure of.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,668
Reaction score
2,921
Location
Northern VA
Was it one of the newer blackhawk or fobus model holsters that are exactly as you describe, but there is a small finger depression on the holster that you need to engage to remove it?

I would still shoot an email to someone, or if you know someone who works in the dept. have them look into it.
I can't believe anyone is authorizing a patrol officer to use something without some form of retention. The Blackhawk Serpa and the small number of similar holsters have retention features that are less obvious than a thumbstrap or hood. I think the OP has na reasonable background to politely inquire of the department. Don't be surprised if they don't reveal a lot of information; asking about guns and holsters can make cops kind of nervous!
 

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
There are newer holsters that have a small locking lever on the thumb side of the holster. Its called the Safariland Auto Locking System. It's very solid...I've tested one. And they do have a duty model.

http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/safarilandmodel6378alspaddleholster.aspx

http://billsgs.com/modules.php?set_...ame=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Or it could have been a different Safariland:

http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx

Most depts I am familiar with have restrictions on the holster they allow on duty.
 
OP
Andy Moynihan

Andy Moynihan

Senior Master
MT Mentor
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
3,692
Reaction score
175
Location
People's Banana Republic of Massachusettstan, Disu
There are newer holsters that have a small locking lever on the thumb side of the holster. Its called the Safariland Auto Locking System. It's very solid...I've tested one. And they do have a duty model.

http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/safarilandmodel6378alspaddleholster.aspx

http://billsgs.com/modules.php?set_...ame=Gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php

Or it could have been a different Safariland:

http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx

Most depts I am familiar with have restrictions on the holster they allow on duty.

http://www.code3tactical.com/safariland-model-295-duty-holster-mid-ride-level-ii.aspx

THAT'S the one. Thank you. Issue resolved.

(I kinda want one now)
 

Brian R. VanCise

MT Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 9, 2004
Messages
27,758
Reaction score
1,517
Location
Las Vegas, Nevada
I kind've thought it might be that model and glad that someone was able to provide a picture and the issue resolved.

Like jks9199 and the other officer's on the board it would be a surprise if an officer in this day and age did not have
a holster with some sort of retention device on it. Still I am sure there are some out there.
 

Deaf Smith

Master of Arts
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,722
Reaction score
85
Andy,

Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)

I would send a polite note to the chief. Polite and respectful. Might even get a Desantis, Gould & Gouldrich, or Galco catelog and send it with the note.

And find some newspaper articles about gun snaches, that to might open their eyes. But do use some Dale Carnage and win them over.

Deaf
 

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
Andy,

Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)

I would send a polite note to the chief. Polite and respectful. Might even get a Desantis, Gould & Gouldrich, or Galco catelog and send it with the note.

And find some newspaper articles about gun snaches, that to might open their eyes. But do use some Dale Carnage and win them over.

Deaf

Umm..the guy was wearing a level II duty retention holster.
 

Hudson69

Brown Belt
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
419
Reaction score
19
Location
Utah
A suggestion before you go off on a possibly new or old officer or their department.

It sounds like you are not an LEO but have firearms experience so I will say it like this. My department uses holster that has no real visible retention, the Safariland 6325 whether it is with a tac light (I use the TLR-1) or not.

There is no visible retention and Safariland land does make one that only covers about half the gun, just up past the the ejection port (not sure what the model number is).

These are very good quality holsters and they are as solid as anything with a thumb break anyway (they are rated at level II I believe). Additionally they make off duty carry clones with a slightly different belt hook-up so you can have a paddle or belt slide that has the same retention and function. They come with a shroud but most officers I have seen, myself included, take the shroud off.

I am not saying that this is the case but look at how popular the Serpa holsters are and they have no fan shroud and they are tough enough that the military authorizes them for use.

This is not a dig but just because someone is new does not mean that they are either in experienced or naive.

I would just ask the next officer you see with that rig and ask about it; most agencies I have worked with have some pretty solid rules about what they can and cannot use for uniform wear.
6325.jpg
 

Hudson69

Brown Belt
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Messages
419
Reaction score
19
Location
Utah
Andy,

Concealment holsters are not thick enough to withstand a snatch. An adrenaline filled attacker will just rip the holster by it's seams. The armord car guards around here know better than that (but some of the old bank security guards don't!)

I would send a polite note to the chief. Polite and respectful. Might even get a Desantis, Gould & Gouldrich, or Galco catelog and send it with the note.

And find some newspaper articles about gun snaches, that to might open their eyes. But do use some Dale Carnage and win them over.

Deaf

I see that the issue was resolved already in regard to the holster; Safariland ALS type but this brings up another issue.

If you are a shooter then you know that there are any number of concealment rigs that are everybit as solid as a duty rig and are still very concealable; Serpa's and Safariland in addition to the ones named herein.

On another note most agencies do research on equipment and pick what is going to work best not simply the cheapest. Most agencies have someone(s) who are gear guys and some are shooters; they let their agency range, training and supply guys know when something with CDI comes up that works. But if you see something cool drop a line to your local department, office or agency.:)
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
541
Location
NH
I would just ask the next officer you see with that rig and ask about it;

Really? I don't think I would ever ask an on-duty officer walking through town about their sidearm (or what holsters it). Just seems like an unnecessary reason to put them on high alert and look at me in an overly suspicious light.

At least in my city, the Community Policing coordinator is just an e-mail or a phone call away. His contact info is on the PD website. Wouldn't a channel such as this be a better option?
 

Archangel M

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
4,555
Reaction score
154
Not directed at anybody here but:

Most people I run into who want to gripe about our gear, training, shooting ability seem to be less concerned with our "safety" as they are about appearing more knowledgeable or "high speed" than the cops.
 
Top