Sakuraba vs Rolles Gracie

TFP

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Awesome! Would have been interesting to see Sak really fight a Gracie he didn't have a size advantage against.
 

Twin Fist

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size advantage? for 20 years the gracies have crowed about size not mattering because of thier superior skills........NOW it matters? pfffft
 

TFP

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size advantage? for 20 years the gracies have crowed about size not mattering because of thier superior skills........NOW it matters? pfffft

they said they would take on all comers regardless of size and that there style could help defeat the larger opponent. In the modern era, size matters.

Fact is SAK, one of my favorite fighters who is a large 185lbs, fought Gracie's from 145lbs, 155lbs, 170lbs. In today's MMA world that size advantage is unheard of.

Weidman vs Urijah Faber?
Weidman vs. Henderson?
Weidman vs. Hendricks?

no way we see these fights happen! BJ Penn was the closest as he fought high level from 155lbs-HW, but he isn't normal!
 

nordin

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they said they would take on all comers regardless of size and that there style could help defeat the larger opponent. In the modern era, size matters.

Fact is SAK, one of my favorite fighters who is a large 185lbs, fought Gracie's from 145lbs, 155lbs, 170lbs. In today's MMA world that size advantage is unheard of.

Weidman vs Urijah Faber?
Weidman vs. Henderson?
Weidman vs. Hendricks?

no way we see these fights happen! BJ Penn was the closest as he fought high level from 155lbs-HW, but he isn't normal!

I love Sakurabas flowing grappling style.
You are totally right size matters a lot and I think it unrealistic to expect fighters to do any of those crazy 300 pounder against 150 pounder fights like in Pride days.

However I don't agree about Sakuraba being big 185. He weighted around 183 lbs in his prime and lied about his weight to get fights in more prestigious upper weight classes. Most Japanese fighters didn't cut water weight at Pride days. Now add to that fact that Sakuraba was always pudgy, he was far from ripped and his abs were basically invisible. That means he was non-cutting and quiet fat(for athlete in weightclass sport) 183 pounder. Interesting that he was able to make weight for 168 lbs welterweight belt fight at age of 41 and even then he wasn't ripped. At that age it becomes very hard to do heavy water weight cutting and if still he wasn't ripped, it is very realistic that Sakuraba could easily be lightweight in his prime or average welterweight. Gracies weren't big either, but they were leaner. So I think that actual muscle mass wasn't that different between Saku and Royce(at their fight fight Saku weighted-in 178), Ryan or Renzo except for Royler who was smaller. We can take for example GSP; he is welterweight yet walks around 190 lbs and are not fat, so his weight cut is mostly water weight. He would be average sized middle weight by todays standards not Saku.

BTW. It seems that fighters who have a bit more fat gets constantly over billed. Two good examples are Anderson Silva and Rampage Jackson. People say that they cut from 220 and 250 lbs respectively. This numbers although correct gives totally unrealistic impression. Both of them gain a lot of fat when not in the camp. I have seen some pictures and videos where you can barely recognize Silva with double chin when he is at that weight. However when they are active and training they are around 195 and 215. Then they do water weight cutting. Even then Silva isn't really ripped at 185. If you want to see ripped Silva watch his Shooto Championship fight at 168 lbs in 2001. He went down to welterweight as late as 2006 at age 30 and even suggested fight with GSP in his weight like year ago. This is possible because he isn't huge; his very normal middle weight for todays standards same as Rampage isn't huge light heavy weight.
 

TFP

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I love Sakurabas flowing grappling style.
You are totally right size matters a lot and I think it unrealistic to expect fighters to do any of those crazy 300 pounder against 150 pounder fights like in Pride days.

However I don't agree about Sakuraba being big 185. He weighted around 183 lbs in his prime and lied about his weight to get fights in more prestigious upper weight classes. Most Japanese fighters didn't cut water weight at Pride days. Now add to that fact that Sakuraba was always pudgy, he was far from ripped and his abs were basically invisible. That means he was non-cutting and quiet fat(for athlete in weightclass sport) 183 pounder. Interesting that he was able to make weight for 168 lbs welterweight belt fight at age of 41 and even then he wasn't ripped. At that age it becomes very hard to do heavy water weight cutting and if still he wasn't ripped, it is very realistic that Sakuraba could easily be lightweight in his prime or average welterweight. Gracies weren't big either, but they were leaner. So I think that actual muscle mass wasn't that different between Saku and Royce(at their fight fight Saku weighted-in 178), Ryan or Renzo except for Royler who was smaller. We can take for example GSP; he is welterweight yet walks around 190 lbs and are not fat, so his weight cut is mostly water weight. He would be average sized middle weight by todays standards not Saku.

BTW. It seems that fighters who have a bit more fat gets constantly over billed. Two good examples are Anderson Silva and Rampage Jackson. People say that they cut from 220 and 250 lbs respectively. This numbers although correct gives totally unrealistic impression. Both of them gain a lot of fat when not in the camp. I have seen some pictures and videos where you can barely recognize Silva with double chin when he is at that weight. However when they are active and training they are around 195 and 215. Then they do water weight cutting. Even then Silva isn't really ripped at 185. If you want to see ripped Silva watch his Shooto Championship fight at 168 lbs in 2001. He went down to welterweight as late as 2006 at age 30 and even suggested fight with GSP in his weight like year ago. This is possible because he isn't huge; his very normal middle weight for todays standards same as Rampage isn't huge light heavy weight.

This makes alot sense, but you didn't mention much about Anderson easily going up to 205lbs and nit looking small. I've been in the same locker room with him (BITH cornering different fighters) and he is "big"
 

nordin

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This makes alot sense, but you didn't mention much about Anderson easily going up to 205lbs and nit looking small. I've been in the same locker room with him (BITH cornering different fighters) and he is "big"

Wow, did you talk to him? Must be cool to casually meet a top guy in a gym.

Ok I didn't mention about him easy going up to 205. I mentioned him being 220 ''off season'' so yeah he can be 205 too. I have never done his body composition testing nor measured him with tape, so take my words with a grain of salt. However Anderson is ectomorphic type, with small ankles, wrist knees etc. You can tell it just by looking at him. These guys usually have naturally lower muscle mass due to shorter muscle bellies/longer tendons. However when they gain some muscle they can look fairly impressive since short round muscle bellies contrast with thin bones in joints. Add to that increased height and wider clavicle bones. Same type is Badr Hari who fought as young adult lighter then 200 lbs despite being 6'6'', same is true (to a degree) for Jon Jones. These guys all have relatively lean legs with short calves and medium sized upper legs, short torso and thin bone structure. Height with medium wide shoulders and small waists gives size illusion.
Proportions and height, not huge muscles make him look big.
Also lets not forget that there is a natural limit for 1)muscle building and 2)water cutting and 3)doing both of the previously mentioned things in 30ties. After initial growth spurt in late teens and early 20ties, human body can add only that much muscle each year. According to CDC growth rate charts and study by Westcott et al. 2009. man of Anderson's height could gain only about MAX 3 kg of muscle a year after late teen; and since he is ectomorph and not training bodybuilding style probably only half of that a year. Remember Anderson has been doing heavy cardio since teens which isn't most perfect for muscle building either.
Water cutting has limits too. Yes there are guys who cut 20 to 30 pounds, however those are usually the ones with very muscular bodies, since fat doesn't contain water, muscle and organs does. More your weight consists of fat and less muscle less you can cut before interfering with organ functions.
And last is the age. As you get older muscle gains becomes harder due to decreasing testosteron, hgh and other hormone levels same as big water cutting. So if Anderson fought 2006 at age of 30 in 175 lbs and wasn't ripped(which indicates that even at that weight he wasn't extremely muscular) and fought at 205 lbs in 2008, what makes bigger sense- him being just more fat and less dehydrated at 205 or him building 20 or 30 lbs of muscle in 2 years at his thirties? If he walks around 220 lbs fat, he could easily just cut less fat. This is very usual occurrence between boxers who want to fight fighters weight class, like James Tony who literally was fat in heavyweight bout weight ins. Fact that Anderson could go as light as 168 as fully grown men, shows that he isn't big framed.
 

nordin

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Thanks for the great post!

Wow, I am bit surprised. I guess this is the most respectful martial art forum on the net. It is the first time I have ever seen someone online thanking for writing post(overextended btw) that might not be in 100% agreement with his/her own opinion. You sir/lady are pure class.
 
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