Rushing through Hyung during class or one's own pace?

[Lynne]

Everyone (at least a white and yellow belt level) rushes through the forms in an effort to stay together.

Rushing makes a less than great Hugul Jaseh in Gi Cho Hyung Sam Bu. I am trying to pop my hip out and really put the weight on the back leg. And I want my aiming to be smooth. I want my forms to be smooth yet dynamic when I punch and block. This isn't easy to do when everyone is rushing. In fact, I think it encoruages sloppiness.

One of the higher belts told me to go at my own pace to show that I can do the form correct. I did that last night and the instructor didn't tell me to hurry up; there wasn't any feedback. We have good instructors - this one just doesn't give feedback or correction.

I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because Master R teaches them and I KNOW he will give me corrections.

I'm just a little frustrated. It's my daughter who is teaching me how to do Hulgul Jaseh. The instructors haven't given me correction. We do have large evening classes sometimes.

A long way to get around to the point, I guess. But as instructors, do you encourage your students to go at their own pace or do you want everyone to keep together in the forms?

During tests, we keep together.

 

[Kacey]

It depends on what the instructor wants. As an instructor, sometimes I want all of my students to stay together; sometimes I will dictate the speed to the senior student present (often, when students have just learned a new tul, and I want them to be able to follow the senior students if they get lost, I will dictate a slower speed), and sometimes I won't. There are times when I may specify a higher speed, so that I can see who really knows the tul; those who don't will get lost at the higher speed. Other times, I will want students to go their own speed and work on technical details within the tul they are performing. There are other reasons I might dictate the speed as well, and whether or not I want students to stay together, but you get the idea.

At testing and in competition students are told to perform their tuls at the speed they are most competent with... and even so, the most common negative comment is that they were going too fast to do the tuls correctly.

 

[Lynne]

It depends on what the instructor wants. As an instructor, sometimes I want all of my students to stay together; sometimes I will dictate the speed to the senior student present (often, when students have just learned a new tul, and I want them to be able to follow the senior students if they get lost, I will dictate a slower speed), and sometimes I won't. There are times when I may specify a higher speed, so that I can see who really knows the tul; those who don't will get lost at the higher speed. Other times, I will want students to go their own speed and work on technical details within the tul they are performing. There are other reasons I might dictate the speed as well, and whether or not I want students to stay together, but you get the idea.

At testing and in competition students are told to perform their tuls at the speed they are most competent with... and even so, the most common negative comment is that they were going too fast to do the tuls correctly.

Thank you for the input, Kacey. I think I see the students setting the pace, but that does depend on the instructor. I think some instructors are just a bit more laid back Next time, I'm going to ask!

 

[Tez3]

I go with Kacey here.
I believe though that all katas/hyungs/patterns/forms etc have their own rhythm and speed. I do try to teach the students to feel for that as well as perform techniques correctly. If I've done the job properly come grading they will all be together.

 

[Makalakumu]

The speed in which you are performing a hyung is completely dependent upon the intent the instructor has in mind. Kacey stated some pretty good examples, so I'll elaborate on a couple of different points.

In general, in my dojang, we do our forms at our own speed. We are a small operation, so its not such a big deal for a couple of students to be in completely different places at once.

In a larger dojang, however, having everyone do the forms as one unit really helps the teacher see who is having problems with this or that technique and it helps the student see the standard that they need to meet.

In my teachers teacher's dojang, we worked forms in a very regimented way because it was so large and this was the best way that he could teach.

My advice is that if you are concerned that you are being rushed, then I think that you should practice your form more often and then talk to your instructor. See if you can show him your form at your own speed and get some more personal feedback.

 

[jks9199]

There are times when working on forms that you should go slow, concentrate on all the pieces, and really try to get it right. But, sometimes, in a class setting, you have to push the pace a bit and keep up with the class. Generally, I try to keep the pace balanced somewhere between the fastest and slowest students, and when I work a form "by the numbers" or in sets, I pause between counts or sets to let everyone catch up.

Listen to the guidance your instructors are giving you; they know what's happening in class, as well as where your skills should be at this point. Sometimes, they know you won't get it perfect -- but want you to work it anyway. I'll also sometimes not correct a student; they've got the basic pattern of the form, but just aren't ready for much more correction till they grind that in some more.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Especially with lower belts, we usually do hyung at the instructor/helper's count during class, so everyone stays together. Even at higher levels, we'll sometimes do it at the instructor's count the first time (our count the next). This helps to make sure every technique is distinct, not rushed through to the next, that correct stance is maintained, and that the instructor/helper can make comments/corrections between moves.

 

[Lynne]

Thanks for the comments and clarification.

As I practice at home, I become more proficient. You know, I notice the other students (yellow belts) aren't popping their hips out in the back stance though. They are more or less balancing their weight between both legs. Some people aren't on their toe on the front foot either. I assume the instructors are just looking for correct stepping and punching right now.

We're testing end of August. I guess we will learn the correct posture before then.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Thanks for the comments and clarification.

As I practice at home, I become more proficient. You know, I notice the other students (yellow belts) aren't popping their hips out in the back stance though. They are more or less balancing their weight between both legs. Some people aren't on their toe on the front foot either. I assume the instructors are just looking for correct stepping and punching right now.

We're testing end of August. I guess we will learn the correct posture before then.

Heh. This is why I like being given junior belts to instruct. Correct stance is one of the things of which I'm most critical, since it's one of the things I work hardest at perfecting in myself. Half of my shouted corrections to students are "Lower stance!" or "All your weight on your back foot!" or "Front stance, both feet pointed the same way!" or something of that nature. Looking back to when I was that rank, those were the things pounded into my head by my sa bom nim, so I guess I learned from the master .

 

[Lynne]

Heh. This is why I like being given junior belts to instruct. Correct stance is one of the things of which I'm most critical, since it's one of the things I work hardest at perfecting in myself. Half of my shouted corrections to students are "Lower stance!" or "All your weight on your back foot!" or "Front stance, both feet pointed the same way!" or something of that nature. Looking back to when I was that rank, those were the things pounded into my head by my sa bom nim, so I guess I learned from the master .

You were fortunate to have those things pounded in your head. I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because they are smaller and Master R usually teaches them. He has eyes all around his head, I think. Really, he doesn't miss anything.

Your students are fortunate to have you, JT.

 

[Tez3]

When doing kata though it's easy to concentrate on the 'perfect' stances at the expense of the bunkai though. I think good stances are ideal but shouldn't sacrifce the true point of kaya/hyung for good looking performances. I look for the understanding behind the moves before I look for a perfect stance.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

You were fortunate to have those things pounded in your head. I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because they are smaller and Master R usually teaches them. He has eyes all around his head, I think. Really, he doesn't miss anything.

Your students are fortunate to have you, JT.

They're not my students, technically, since I'm not a kyo sa nim. I just usually get the job of making sure they go home good and tired after class.

 

[DArnold]

Everyone (at least a white and yellow belt level) rushes through the forms in an effort to stay together.

Rushing makes a less than great Hugul Jaseh in Gi Cho Hyung Sam Bu. I am trying to pop my hip out and really put the weight on the back leg. And I want my aiming to be smooth. I want my forms to be smooth yet dynamic when I punch and block. This isn't easy to do when everyone is rushing. In fact, I think it encoruages sloppiness.

One of the higher belts told me to go at my own pace to show that I can do the form correct. I did that last night and the instructor didn't tell me to hurry up; there wasn't any feedback. We have good instructors - this one just doesn't give feedback or correction.

I'm thinking about going to the morning classes because Master R teaches them and I KNOW he will give me corrections.

I'm just a little frustrated. It's my daughter who is teaching me how to do Hulgul Jaseh. The instructors haven't given me correction. We do have large evening classes sometimes.

A long way to get around to the point, I guess. But as instructors, do you encourage your students to go at their own pace or do you want everyone to keep together in the forms?

During tests, we keep together.

NEVER sacrafice technique for speed.
Speed only comes from practice.

So....
Practice crap, perfect crap

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Hyung training is among the most important parts of our training and should be taught in stages…

Stage #1:
Learn the techniques, one section at a time.

Stage #2:
Establish an understanding of application from both sides of the fight. In Okinawan and Japanese karate the terms are “Bunkai and Oyo”. Bunkai means; explanation of what the technique is doing. Oyo means; what is the attacker doing to force your response.

Without understanding the Bunkai and the Oyo you are just performing physical exercise, not practicing martial art of self defense.

In order for your practice to translate into martial training, or purposeful defensive training you mind must at all times be engaged in engaging the attacker. Every repetition that you execute should be performed with full mental involvement and attention to detail with the attacker in your mind. Understanding distance and timing;

How far is he/she from you when they initiate their attack?

What angle are they coming from?

How long is their weapon?

What will be the correct angle for your body to be on to successfully deflect or block the incoming weapon and than counter in an effective manor?

In transitioning from one stance to another, how should you pivot on your feet to allow the smoothest transition possible, without telegraphing your intent to your opponent?

Once these questions are answered and you have a correct picture in your mind for how the techniques should look you are ready to learn about the natural rhythm of the hyung. Keep in mind that the kind of technique that you are executing will determine its speed. Striking and blocking techniques will be fast and powerful. Joint locking techniques will be slow and deliberate. Your breathing will also help you to set the correct pace of the hyung.

Stage #3:

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!

Remember; practice makes perfect is not correct.

Grandmaster Hwang Kee said; you can practice a reverse punch for 1,000 repetitions. If you execute them incorrectly, at the end of your 1,000 repetitions you will perform them well, incorrectly.

Perfect practice makes perfect…

If you are going to take the time to practice, practice at a pace that will allow you to see and feel how you are performing. Use a mirror when ever you can and study yourself closely. Don’t just focus on the number of repetitions. Sometimes “Less is More”. 100 well executed repetitions will serve you better than 1,000 poorly executed repetitions.


When training hyung in a group setting such as in class. If everyone is doing the same hyung together, they should always be moving at the same pace. It is the senior in the group that should set the pace, and that senior should at all times be mindful of who is in the group and make sure that he/she doesn’t leave anyone behind.

By keeping everyone on pace with one another you are learning about the hyungs rhythm. If you are making mistakes because you simply can’t keep up, there should be an adjustment of the pace by the senior. If you are making mistakes because you simply don’t know the hyung, you should be assigned an assistant to help you learn it.

Instructors that see students making mistakes due to lack of knowledge that don’t make corrections are either being lazy or they just aren’t well experienced teachers. We have far too many drill sergeant style teachers out there. Anyone can stand in front of the class and bark out commands. This doesn’t make you a good teacher; in fact it makes you a bad teacher.

If your instructor isn’t making corrections, you won’t be improving any time soon. Performing the same mistakes over and over again only reinforces poor muscle memory. If you aren’t getting corrections, become the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Ask for help. You will than find it…

 

[exile]

When doing kata though it's easy to concentrate on the 'perfect' stances at the expense of the bunkai though. I think good stances are ideal but shouldn't sacrifce the true point of kaya/hyung for good looking performances. I look for the understanding behind the moves before I look for a perfect stance.

And that's really the payoff of doing hyungs, eh?

The incredible richness of the hyungs/kata (since so many KMA forms are literal translations of O/J kata, or minor modifications of them) is probably the single greatest combat resource those of us pursuing the karate-based arts possess. That resource was I think in serious danger for a while—twenty years ago, I suspect, KMAists would have read Tez' statement in complete bewilderment as to what she was getting at—but today, most progressive KMAists will read it and nod in heartfelt agreement. If you perform the practice of hyungs from the point of view of rehearsing the street-ready moves that the bunkai for subsequences of those hyungs is pointing you to, rather than worrying about an artificially imposed rhythm, you'll be able to get the real SD befits built into those hyungs. That may mean working slowly at various times and quickly at others, but in every case, the pace of the performance, from the `bunkai-jutsu' point of view, is driven by the pace of the fight, and how the moves you're training work into damaging the attacker in that fight...

Hyung training is among the most important parts of our training and should be taught in stages…

Stage #1:
Learn the techniques, one section at a time.

Stage #2:
Establish an understanding of application from both sides of the fight. In Okinawan and Japanese karate the terms are “Bunkai and Oyo”. Bunkai means; explanation of what the technique is doing. Oyo means; what is the attacker doing to force your response.

Without understanding the Bunkai and the Oyo you are just performing physical exercise, not practicing martial art of self defense.

These are exactly the first two stages of the combat paradigm that Iain Abernethy and other British Combat Association practitioners recognize as the crucial `analytic steps' in deriving the combat-relevant information from the hyungs, kata, hsings or whatever that I was talking about. You have to first understand what the forms are telling you about the movements involved, and then the ball shifts to your courts so far as understanding the actual combat moves.

In order for your practice to translate into martial training, or purposeful defensive training you mind must at all times be engaged in engaging the attacker. Every repetition that you execute should be performed with full mental involvement and attention to detail with the attacker in your mind. Understanding distance and timing;

How far is he/she from you when they initiate their attack?

What angle are they coming from?

How long is their weapon?

What will be the correct angle for your body to be on to successfully deflect or block the incoming weapon and than counter in an effective manor?

In transitioning from one stance to another, how should you pivot on your feet to allow the smoothest transition possible, without telegraphing your intent to your opponent?

In his book Five Year, One Kata, Bill Burgar, an Issinryu 6th dan, makes exactly the same point in connection with Japanese karate kata—which really struck me when I read it, because my own instructor had been talking for years about this point, which Burgar calls visualization and devotes a whole chapter of his book to. In Burgar's view, every time you practice a kata, you should be practicing it from the point of view of applying the bunkai that the kata contain. If you understand a `down block' to be a rising forearm strike to the attacker's pinned grabbing arm, driving his upper body down, followed by a quick spearing elbow strike to the face and then a hard downward hammerfist (or, more likely, knifehand) to the larynx, then you should practice the kata as though that is exactly what you were doing. I realize that both Burgar and my own teacher were saying that you need to see the technique you practice in the full context of the fight in which you apply that technique (extracted, in some cases, from the disguised form in which karate teaching has presented it from the time of Anko Itosu on).

Once these questions are answered and you have a correct picture in your mind for how the techniques should look you are ready to learn about the natural rhythm of the hyung. Keep in mind that the kind of technique that you are executing will determine its speed. Striking and blocking techniques will be fast and powerful. Joint locking techniques will be slow and deliberate. Your breathing will also help you to set the correct pace of the hyung.

Right—speed and pace are determined by how the tech will be applied in combat. Not tournament-style sparring, but CQ destructive applications, in which you are attacked and must defend yourself by damaging the assailant to the point where he no longer can continue the attack.

Stage #3:

PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!!!...


If your instructor isn’t making corrections, you won’t be improving any time soon. Performing the same mistakes over and over again only reinforces poor muscle memory. If you aren’t getting corrections, become the squeaky wheel that gets the grease. Ask for help. You will than find it…

Abernethy and others break this stage down into two substages: (3)a: practice the bunkai extracted from the hyung with a cooperative partner to start with, so that you both learn the basic `feel' of the bunkai move and the ways in which deliberate variations of the attack motivate corresponding variations in the bunkai movements. (3)b: practice `live', with your training partner becoming progressively both less cooperative and less predictable, so that you have to force compliance by technically correct execution of the technique, and also have to train quick access to your combat toolkit of techs (not too many, or you'll wind up getting decked whilst trying to decide which one to select ). The `alive' training aspect is very important, but also rather unpleasant; still, if you want to get the maximum benefit from hyungs, this is a central part of it.

Master Penfil's comments chime in exactly with what a lot of people in the BCA/progressive bunkai movement in karate advocate, and which I've been lucky to have gotten exposure to from the get-go because of my own instructor's approach. In terms of the OP, the key idea is that speed, pace, tempo and so on in hyung performance are driven by the fighting applications of the various complete subsequences within the hyungs, and what they're intended to accomplish.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

NEVER sacrafice technique for speed.
Speed only comes from practice.

So....
Practice crap, perfect crap

I agree 100% with this. We tend to do patterns/hyung by numbers first, and then in your own time. I will make everybody wait if needs be, every technique has to be exectued with full intent.

I am also a big believer in stances in hyung though to be honest. As GM Kim Bok Man says 'Basics!'. If you practise enough it all comes together. People are too eager to learn too much at once, they want to learn one form after another, without fully grasping anything.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

I agree 100% with this. We tend to do patterns/hyung by numbers first, and then in your own time. I will make everybody wait if needs be, every technique has to be exectued with full intent.

I am also a big believer in stances in hyung though to be honest. As GM Kim Bok Man says 'Basics!'. If you practice enough it all comes together. People are too eager to learn too much at once, they want to learn one form after another, without fully grasping anything.

Stances are, by them selves, important defensive and offensive techniques. They were devised and implemented for many good reasons. I see far too many practitioners forcing their students into deeper and wider stances, and stating that the deeper and wider your stances are, the better you will get.

This is a serious falsehood...

If the application calls for a front stance to be used to place the front foot in a hooking position behind the opponents’ front foot, while driving your front legs knee or shin into the opponents’ knee, shin of femur to break his/her balance or to break their leg, deeper is better.

If there isn't any physical contact between the opposing front legs, and the intent of the technique being executed is a block and strike with your hands of any upper body anatomy, a deeper stance may restrict your mobility and cause you to be caught in a compromised position as you try to change positions between techniques.

This brings us right back to; you must understand bunkai and Oyo in order to truly grasp the most benefit from your training.

There is another word that we use in training. That word in "Henka". Henka means "Variation". Based on the size of your opponent, the length of his/her weapon, the speed, and torque as well as the trajectory of the weapon you may have to modify your response. If you are married to the exact bunkai that you have been taught, and are unable to flow with the action you will loose the exchange. Training your Bunkai with Henka allow you to learn how to flow as the attackers actions deviate from what you have trained with in class.

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

And that's really the payoff of doing hyungs, eh?

The incredible richness of the hyungs/kata (since so many KMA forms are literal translations of O/J kata, or minor modifications of them) is probably the single greatest combat resource those of us pursuing the karate-based arts possess. That resource was I think in serious danger for a while—twenty years ago, I suspect, KMAists would have read Tez' statement in complete bewilderment as to what she was getting at—but today, most progressive KMAists will read it and nod in heartfelt agreement. If you perform the practice of hyungs from the point of view of rehearsing the street-ready moves that the bunkai for subsequences of those hyungs is pointing you to, rather than worrying about an artificially imposed rhythm, you'll be able to get the real SD befits built into those hyungs. That may mean working slowly at various times and quickly at others, but in every case, the pace of the performance, from the `bunkai-jutsu' point of view, is driven by the pace of the fight, and how the moves you're training work into damaging the attacker in that fight...



These are exactly the first two stages of the combat paradigm that Iain Abernethy and other British Combat Association practitioners recognize as the crucial `analytic steps' in deriving the combat-relevant information from the hyungs, kata, hsings or whatever that I was talking about. You have to first understand what the forms are telling you about the movements involved, and then the ball shifts to your courts so far as understanding the actual combat moves.



In his book Five Year, One Kata, Bill Burgar, an Issinryu 6th dan, makes exactly the same point in connection with Japanese karate kata—which really struck me when I read it, because my own instructor had been talking for years about this point, which Burgar calls visualization and devotes a whole chapter of his book to. In Burgar's view, every time you practice a kata, you should be practicing it from the point of view of applying the bunkai that the kata contain. If you understand a `down block' to be a rising forearm strike to the attacker's pinned grabbing arm, driving his upper body down, followed by a quick spearing elbow strike to the face and then a hard downward hammerfist (or, more likely, knifehand) to the larynx, then you should practice the kata as though that is exactly what you were doing. I realize that both Burgar and my own teacher were saying that you need to see the technique you practice in the full context of the fight in which you apply that technique (extracted, in some cases, from the disguised form in which karate teaching has presented it from the time of Anko Itosu on).



Abernethy and others break this stage down into two substages: (3)a: practice the bunkai extracted from the hyung with a cooperative partner to start with, so that you both learn the basic `feel' of the bunkai move and the ways in which deliberate variations of the attack motivate corresponding variations in the bunkai movements. (3)b: practice `live', with your training partner becoming progressively both less cooperative and less predictable, so that you have to force compliance by technically correct execution of the technique, and also have to train quick access to your combat toolkit of techs (not too many, or you'll wind up getting decked whilst trying to decide which one to select ). The `alive' training aspect is very important, but also rather unpleasant; still, if you want to get the maximum benefit from hyungs, this is a central part of it.

Master Penfil's comments chime in exactly with what a lot of people in the BCA/progressive bunkai movement in karate advocate, and which I've been lucky to have gotten exposure to from the get-go because of my own instructor's approach. In terms of the OP, the key idea is that speed, pace, tempo and so on in hyung performance are driven by the fighting applications of the various complete subsequences within the hyungs, and what they're intended to accomplish.

I have not seen or read Ian Abernathy's work yet, but I have heard enough about his work to know that we have had similar training over our years of training.

I am going to order his books and DVD's at some point to see for myself what he has put together.

When ever I am at a training session with other practitioners or at an open tournament and see others performing basics or hyung/kata that we use, but see them executing the techniques differently than we do them I get excited. Many will state; oh, they are doing it wrong!!!

I always state that there isn't a wrong way to execute technique if there is viable bunkai to support the movement. The problem comes up when I ask them; what are you doing with this technique, and they can't answer...

When someone executes an high area block with, for example, the executing hand starting from the opposite hip and crossing the body as it raises to completion, with their arm bent to 90 degrees and rotated at to shoulder to the side and they say that they are blocking a hammerfist to the head. The structure simply won't support the defense.

Powerline and center control should always be of importance. If you don't understand these principles, you are going to be in trouble the first time that you attempt to use a given technique against a real attacker. That will be the wrong time to learn that you are not structurally sound.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

@ master jay: Yes, but we're talking hyung here, not sparring. I agree that there is a limit to how low you can go, feasibly, but practicing low stances is an important part of training. Not only does it increase flexibility and muscle strength, but it pushes students to see how far they can go. You'll never get any better if you don't feel the burn every now and again.

And using chungul jase as a counter-argument to low stances is a bit off, especially considering, as you point out quite often, that chungul jase has very specific uses, not to be used as an all-purpose stance. Considering hugul jase on the other hand, it's beneficial to be able to maintain a lower stance. Since all (or nearly all) your weight is on your back foot, your front foot is more free to kick. The only limiting factor, then, on how fast you can kick is how long it takes to pick up your knee. The more your knee is bent, and the lower you are to the ground already, the shorter this time. Also, a lower center of gravity gives you more stability, making it harder to topple you. Anyone who's seen a fast and powerful but short fighter take down a much larger opponent knows that.

Again, I'm not suggesting going beyond practical limits here, especially since in a fight your feet are going to be moving constantly anyway. Having the muscle memory for a low stance is still a good idea, though. Without low stances, we'd be what, WTKDF? :-þ

Tang Soo!

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

JT,
I think that you misunderstood what I was discussing. Low stance training is an important part of our training and conditioning. However, in hyung training I see far too many instructors push for lower/deeper, longer and wider stances at all times. This is a clear sign that those instructors have a shallow understanding of the hyung with regard to the practical application point of view.

I have worked with some of the former ITF schools here in Michigan (under Master Richard Collins, Jr.). Their stance training only focused on depth, and when I questioned them (the black belts, 1st – 3rd dan’s) as to what the applications were, and why their stances were so stretched out, they had no answers. All that they could say was that they were always told that this was what Chun Jae Nim C. S. Kim stressed.

There is no argument as to the importance of deep stance training for both conditioning as well as establishing a solid foundation for specific defensive and offensive techniques. However, due to a lack of understanding of function, practitioners develop improper technique as a result of the additional “telegraphing” movements that become a part of their movement in order to transition from one step to the next. These movements include upper body forward and backward movement that becomes necessary to get the weight off of the rear foot and draw it forward. The ITF Chungul Jaseh is, from what I have seen here in Michigan, too wide. When your front legs femur is pointing to the side, as opposed to pointing forward at the target, your power will follow the direction that the femur/knee is pointing. This wider stance also causes a side to side swaying movement that causes you to have more telegraphing than, making it easier for your opponent to read your intent.

Many confuse deeper body position with the length and width of the foot placement, or how far apart your feet are. You can still have a strong, deep stance with your feet closer together. A primary concern should always be ease of mobility. If you are stuck in a position that calls for you to include additional body movements to transition from one stance to another, you need to make adjustments.

As I have stated in the past, the best way to discuss these issues and share this information so that it is best understood, we should find a time to meet and train in person. I will be in Pittsburgh in September. I would love to have you participate in that seminar…