"Running Palms" : revisited

[mook jong man]

Was with a student the other day and thought we might do a bit of revision and practice 'running palms'.
Just to explain for any non Wing Chun people it is an exercise used in chi sau where one partner pushes down or outwards on the other persons arms.

The other person sensing this force then lets their wrist hinge open like a gate and lets the resistance go past as the palm runs back on the inside and strikes the oppponent , who's arms are now out of position to adequately defend , hence the name 'running palms.
Basically it teaches the practitioner not to fight force when the opponent is trying to take the wrists away from the centreline.
We are really only concerned with force that is coming directly at us.

Anyway, I had not done the exercise for quite a long time , but I told the student to use a lot of force in randomly pressing outwards or down.

As we got started I found that I didn't have to use 'running palms' much at all , certainly not like I would have had to use it years ago.
It seemed to take him a lot of effort to try and get my wrist off the centreline and even when he did it did not seem to take much effort from me to get my wrist back on centre again.

I can only think that over the years my force has become heavier and more focused and whereas before my instinct would have been to 'run palms' , it is now to just keep focusing and drag their wrists back on centre.

Does anybody else find this?
That they have to rely less on 'running palms' as time goes on because it is very hard for the opponent to move your wrists away from the centreline in the first place.

There is no doubt that I would still have to 'run palms' if the force was strong enough say for example if doing chi sau with my seniors because they would be too powerful.
But it seems to me that it is a relative thing and the higher the skill level the less reliance there is on running palms , because the 'forward force ' is very focused and less able to be disturbed by outside force.

What do you lot think?

 

[Siunimtao]

Running Palms - Hun sao, lock em on and drag em in,

 

[mook jong man]

Running Palms - Hun sao, lock em on and drag em in,

Running palms is not Hune Sau.
Hune Sau is circling hand.

Running palms are a lot more subtle movement where the wrist is allowed to relax and hinge to let the opponents force go out. , there is no circling of the palm involved.

Hune Sau would actually be too slow for this application, and would probably cause the opponents wrist to be obstructed instead of letting his force go out.

Hune Sau is more appropriately used when your wrist is on the outside of his arm but still on the centerline , and you want to get on the inside of his arm , not when someone is rapidly forcing your arms down or outwards.

 

[Siunimtao]

Running palms is not Hune Sau.
Hune Sau is circling hand.

Running palms are a lot more subtle movement where the wrist is allowed to relax and hinge to let the opponents force go out. , there is no circling of the palm involved.

Hune Sau would actually be too slow for this application, and would probably cause the opponents wrist to be obstructed instead of letting his force go out.

Hune Sau is more appropriately used when your wrist is on the outside of his arm but still on the centerline , and you want to get on the inside of his arm , not when someone is rapidly forcing your arms down or outwards.

HuneSau is a rotating wrist, try flicking it in reverse,

 

[mook jong man]

HuneSau is a rotating wrist, try flicking it in reverse,

There is no need to rotate it at all in the type of application I am talking about , you just let your hand flop back, and let his wrist go out , or down.

 

[geezer]

There is no need to rotate it at all in the type of application I am talking about , you just let your hand flop back, and let his wrist go out , or down.

Mook, I get what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. Basically, the simplest solution is always the best Wing Chun. The simplest, but not the easiest. As your skills get more refined, you solve the problem with less movement, less effort. I've noticed the same thing (from the other perspective) when my seniors work on me. Good observation.

 

[mook jong man]

Mook, I get what you are saying and it makes a lot of sense. Basically, the simplest solution is always the best Wing Chun. The simplest, but not the easiest. As your skills get more refined, you solve the problem with less movement, less effort. I've noticed the same thing (from the other perspective) when my seniors work on me. Good observation.

It's not easy because you have to keep the wrists very relaxed.
What you are doing is basically just letting his force open your wrist joint.

If you were to try to do a huen sau it means that you are using your own force to rotate your hand , when he has already initiatiated a forceful sudden movement.
It's just too slow to be able to react to his movement.

How's your back going , by the way?

 

[Domino]

He's planking and typing at the same time !

 

[geezer]

RE the back... making slow improvement. I can still do WC as long as I keep the spine straight, the waist locked (no torso twisting), stay really relaxed (to absorb and dissolve the shock of an opponent's techniques), and never kick higher than the knee.

Wait a minute... isn't that what I was supposed to be doing all along??? I wonder if Ng Mui had back problems?

 

[mook jong man]

RE the back... making slow improvement. I can still do WC as long as I keep the spine straight, the waist locked (no torso twisting), stay really relaxed (to absorb and dissolve the shock of an opponent's techniques), and never kick higher than the knee.

Wait a minute... isn't that what I was supposed to be doing all along??? I wonder if Ng Mui had back problems?

What if you wore some type of back brace or maybe one of those weightlifting belts to training , do you think that would work?
You know , just to reinforce it a bit and make it a bit safer for you to train.