Run away from no-mask people

[jobo]

Did your caps lock get stuck?

Personally, I'm very fond of my 85 year old dad, and I'm interested in keeping the old codger around as long as I can. I'd feel pretty rotten if I brought a disease into his home that killed him. Especially if I did it carelessly and with disregard to his health. Knowing that the morbidity (morality? ) rate is so much higher for senior citizens than the flu (by an order of magnitude), I'm genuinely confused why anyone would fail to be careful. I mean, even if you're at a reasonably low risk for serious complications, just knowing you could kill a person at the local pub seems like incentive enough to be careful.

In related news, there is something that the CDC puts out that might help this discussion related to the topic of co-morbidity. It's an excess deaths report on the CDC website that is intended to specifically address the concerns mentioned by Kirk above.
Excess Deaths Associated with COVID-19

There's a report on this site here that compares excess deaths including and excluding available COVID19 reports:
Tableau Public

View attachment 23232
If you look at it, you can see that for the past few years, things have gone just about according to schedule. Each bar in the chart represents a week. The image is just a quick screen grab, but you it's an interactive chart, that you can look at the link above. You'll also find the methods along with some cautions about lag times. The chart above is the USA as a whole, but you can also get really granular. It's pretty interesting, but in a nutshell, where you see the plus signs, you can see a higher than expected death rate in that week. The closer to present you get, the less accurate they are because as I mentioned above, there is a lag with reporting. But the cases go up, not down, so you can see that even based on existing data, there are more deaths than expected by a lot in the USA.

So, as an example, in week ending April 18, 2020, the CDC expected between 55,689 and 57,632 deaths. However, a total of 76,694 deaths have been reported for that week so far. 3% more people died than expected that week not including COVID19, and they estimate that between 33 and 38% more died due to the Coronavirus.

Did everyone counted have just COVID19? Certainly not. Were there any missed diagnoses? Maybe. But we know that these estimates are generally pretty close, and that there is a noticeable spike in deaths, to the tune of 33 to 38% more in that week.

Point is, if you're suggesting that the morbidity is being overestimated, the data suggests the opposite. If anything, there are likely more deaths related to covid than are being reported, because more people in general are dying than expected, even if we take out the COVID reports.

no i type with out looking at the screen, then cant be asred to retype it with out the caps lock, sometimes i typed two hundred words, then realise i havnt turn the keyboard on, thats annoying

he is your dad, not mine, its your job to keep him safe, if old people want to go to the pub and run the risk who am i to tell them they are wrong and there are lots of them who do, they would sooner die than stop in isolation, literally and isolation is the only safe place for them, as if you haven't noticed masks and beer have an incompatibility issue

maybe the increased death rate are from the covid victims who die from the controls and not the disease ? among many other related issues domestic violence and child abuse has gone through the roof in the uk

 

[jobo]

related to the excess death reports from the CDC, I noticed there was a spike in December 2017 and January 2018. Not sure what that is from, but now I'm very curious what was going on back then to cause a spike in deaths.

at guess id say that was Christmas related

 

[Steve]

he is your dad, not mine, its your job to keep him safe, if old people want to go to the pub and run the risk who am i to tell them they are wrong and there are lots of them who do, they would sooner die than stop in isolation, literally and isolation is the only safe place for them, as if you haven't noticed masks and beer have an incompatibility issue

So @lklawson , I don't want to presume to speak for other people. But when I describe people who don't wear masks as selfish, this is the kind of attitude I mean. It's a childish selfishness that makes them very susceptible to misleading propaganda.

 

[jobo]

So @lklawson , I don't want to presume to speak for other people. But when I describe people who don't wear masks as selfish, this is the kind of attitude I mean. It's a childish selfishness that makes them very susceptible to misleading propaganda.

its all getting very personal steve, do you expect me to drink beer through a mask ? or do you want me to take your responsibility for the safety of your dear old dad

 

[Steve]

its all getting very personal steve, do you expect me to drink beer through a mask ? or do you want me to take your responsibility for the safety of your dear old dad

Does it feel personal? Sorry about that... you just presented such a clear case in point.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

To be clear, I wear them outside only when I'm around people. My wife and I don't routinely wear them when we walk the dogs, and if we run into other people, we just cross the street. I wear them inside all the time when I'm out among the English (aka, at the store, etc).

I am exempt, i dont wear them. Buisnesses dont really enforce it where i am at and the police dont really sit around to make sure they enforce it. (hell they barely did the 1 metre spacing as they still kept the checkout ailse filled with items to literally make it imposible to stay 2 meters away from people until recently)

 

[jobo]

I am exempt, i dont wear them. Buisnesses dont really enforce it where i am at and the police dont really sit around to make sure they enforce it. (hell they barely did the 1 metre spacing as they still kept the checkout ailse filled with items to literally make it imposible to stay 2 meters away from people until recently)

businesses have no duty to enforce it, except maybe pubs, certainly the only time ive been pulled by a business has been in pubs. licensees have quit heavy liabilities in all this

im expecting the police to get their act together and start handing out more tickets

 

[Steve]

businesses have no duty to enforce it, except maybe pubs, certainly the only time ive been pulled by a business has been in pubs. licensees have quit heavy liabilities in all this

im expecting the police to get their act together and start handing out more tickets

Not sure what it's like in the UK, but in the USA, we have a bit of a mess. First, I totally agree that a business shouldn't be made to enforce the rules. I think I've mentioned that my first job was at McDonald's. A good first job overall, but I worked at two of them near the University of Washington. The first was located on "The Ave" in Seattle, where there were a lot of homeless teens, drugs, and crime. The second was down the street from Greek row. At both, there were a lot of fights in the parking lot, and occasionally in the store, and who would they send out to break the fights up? Me or one of my buddies. Point is simply that I am acutely aware of how these folks must feel when they are forced to confront a customer. And in particular, in this country, people who don't wear their masks are generally looking for confrontation, which just makes it more tenuous for the people who are just trying to make a living.

Second, as weird as this may sound, we have a problem where some cops (generally county sheriffs) are elected. This leads them to believe that they can choose which laws to enforce and which to ignore, and they will direct their deputies to do the same. So, you have in some areas, usually rural or semi-rural, a county sheriff will overtly declare that they are not going to enforce a law that they disagree with. Often, in the past, it's been related to gun laws. But recently, most of these same guys are undermining efforts to get people to wear a dang mask, practice social distancing, or take other State or locally mandated precautions.

Add that to the failure of leadership at the federal level and here we are.

I am exempt, i dont wear them. Buisnesses dont really enforce it where i am at and the police dont really sit around to make sure they enforce it. (hell they barely did the 1 metre spacing as they still kept the checkout ailse filled with items to literally make it imposible to stay 2 meters away from people until recently)

This guy.

 

[lklawson]

So @lklawson , I don't want to presume to speak for other people. But when I describe people who don't wear masks as selfish, this is the kind of attitude I mean. It's a childish selfishness that makes them very susceptible to misleading propaganda.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jobo]

Not sure what it's like in the UK, but in the USA, we have a bit of a mess. First, I totally agree that a business shouldn't be made to enforce the rules. I think I've mentioned that my first job was at McDonald's. A good first job overall, but I worked at two of them near the University of Washington. The first was located on "The Ave" in Seattle, where there were a lot of homeless teens, drugs, and crime. The second was down the street from Greek row. At both, there were a lot of fights in the parking lot, and occasionally in the store, and who would they send out to break the fights up? Me or one of my buddies. Point is simply that I am acutely aware of how these folks must feel when they are forced to confront a customer. And in particular, in this country, people who don't wear their masks are generally looking for confrontation, which just makes it more tenuous for the people who are just trying to make a living.

Second, as weird as this may sound, we have a problem where some cops (generally county sheriffs) are elected. This leads them to believe that they can choose which laws to enforce and which to ignore, and they will direct their deputies to do the same. So, you have in some areas, usually rural or semi-rural, a county sheriff will overtly declare that they are not going to enforce a law that they disagree with. Often, in the past, it's been related to gun laws. But recently, most of these same guys are undermining efforts to get people to wear a dang mask, practice social distancing, or take other State or locally mandated precautions.

Add that to the failure of leadership at the federal level and here we are.
This guy.

its a tapestry here, we have one set of laws for the whole country but dozens of police forces, who prioritise them in different ways, dependent on which important citizen is complaining about what or the whim of the chief constable, or any particular police man. then we have bilaws, that relate to one specific town many of them a 100 years old or more, that no one knows exist, apart from the copper who has just taken a dislike to you and want to do you for something and indeed ancient country wide laws, that have slipped from collective memory, but you can still be prosecuted for if they want to

for instance gambling in a public library, being drunk in a pub, using lewd language more or less anywhere, its such that the well researched copper find all most anything you do contravenes some ancient law,

generally speaking laws fall in to three categories, flavour of the month, like they decided to clamp down on something lots of people have been doing for year, like cycling on the pavement/side walk

bread and butter stuff and

a whole load of cant be arsed getting out of my car? doing the paper work laws, unless they have indeed taken a dislike to you.

the problem with the police and covid early on was they were enforcing a whole load of laws that didn't actually exist, partly coz they were very keen and partly because the government kept issues very badly issued laws, that nobody understood

they got criticised very strongly about that by some very important people including senior judges and ministers, so they backed off , a lot, possibly to much, they wernt going to enforce them if they were going to get hung out to dry

way back,i had a prolonged conversation with copper, on my way to the shops, about my justification for being out,,,, going to the shop,,,, and his insistence that i could only go to a ;''local shop'' which isn't what the law actually said, but we wernt arguing that point, we were arguing the fact i had no obligation to tell him where i lived, so he couldn't know if i was shopping local or not

since then they have had a resurgence of interest and seem to have found their ticket books again

the government was quite recently talking about having an ''army'' of volunteer covid warden spying on citizens and taking pictures/reporting to the police. comparisons with the starzi seemed to knock that idea on the head

 

[Steve]

its a tapestry here, we have one set of laws for the whole country but dozens of police forces, who prioritise them in different ways, dependent on which important citizen is complaining about what or the whim of the chief constable, or any particular police man. then we have bilaws, that relate to one specific town many of them a 100 years old or more, that no one knows exist, apart from the copper who has just taken a dislike to you and want to do you for something and indeed ancient country wide laws, that have slipped from collective memory, but you can still be prosecuted for if they want to

for instance gambling in a public library, being drunk in a pub, using lewd language more or less anywhere, its such that the well researched copper find all most anything you do contravenes some ancient law,

generally speaking laws fall in to three categories, flavour of the month, like they decided to clamp down on something lots of people have been doing for year, like cycling on the pavement/side walk

bread and butter stuff and

a whole load of cant be arsed getting out of my car? doing the paper work laws, unless they have indeed taken a dislike to you.

the problem with the police and covid early on was they were enforcing a whole load of laws that didn't actually exist, partly coz they were very keen and partly because the government kept issues very badly issued laws, that nobody understood

they got criticised very strongly about that by some very important people including senior judges and ministers, so they backed off , a lot, possibly to much, they wernt going to enforce them if they were going to get hung out to dry

way back,i had a prolonged conversation with copper, on my way to the shops, about my justification for being out,,,, going to the shop,,,, and his insistence that i could only go to a ;''local shop'' which isn't what the law actually said, but we wernt arguing that point, we were arguing the fact i had no obligation to tell him where i lived, so he couldn't know if i was shopping local or not

since then they have had a resurgence of interest and seem to have found their ticket books again

the government was quite recently talking about having an ''army'' of volunteer covid warden spying on citizens and taking pictures/reporting to the police. comparisons with the starzi seemed to knock that idea on the head

I love that you call them coppers. Reminds me of the old Mickey Spillane books.

 

[Steve]

Alright! So, who's taken some time to look at the CDC website? I take it we all agree now that, if anything, COVID19 is being under-reported, that legitimate experts all agree that wearing masks is a good idea, that there is evidence that masks work, and that the bunk about co-morbidity is propaganda. Next time this comes up, I'll just refer back to this post to remind everything that we reached a consensus.

 

[jobo]

Alright! So, who's taken some time to look at the CDC website? I take it we all agree now that, if anything, COVID19 is being under-reported, that legitimate experts all agree that wearing masks is a good idea, that there is evidence that masks work, and that the bunk about co-morbidity is propaganda. Next time this comes up, I'll just refer back to this post to remind everything that we reached a consensus.

the cdc are knee deep in this nonsence, you need to find an aurthorative impartial source if you want to claim victory

the issue is less virology, so much as sociology, controls only work if you get people to take them seriously and you take in the social structures people operate with in, just shouting and threatning and tryibg to scare people doesnt work. CLEARLY, your shouting scaremongering and personal attacks have convinved no one

all the current controls, if they have any validity at all, which is distictly in question, do is move the problem elsewhere

 

[Steve]

the cdc are knee deep in this nonsence, you need to find an aurthorative impartial source if you want to claim victory

the issue is less virology, so much as sociology, controls only work if you get people to take them seriously and you take in the social structures people operate with in, just shouting and threatning and tryibg to scare people doesnt work. CLEARLY, your shouting scaremongering and personal attacks have convinved no one

all the current controls, if they have any validity at all, which is distictly in question, do is move the problem elsewhere

How about the WHO?

 

[jobo]

How about the WHO?

it was their &&&& up in the first place, told everyone it wasnt that bad and china had it all under control," no dont bother to close the borders, itll be fine"

i wouldnt trust them to tell me the time with my own watch

yes thank you virology dept, think we give it to the socialogists and the economists to sort it out from here,

 

[Steve]

it was their &&&& up in the first place, told everyone it wasnt that bad and china had it all under control," no dont bother to close the borders, itll be fine"

i wouldnt trust them to tell me the time with my own watch

yes thank you virology dept, think we give it to the socialogists and the economists to sort it out from here,

lol. Okay man.

 

[jobo]

lol. Okay man.

im angry at the sheer incomompitance of our leaders, well my leaders, i have little idea whats happing here, let alobe the states

so its all going well, and they send the kids back to schools,
.right all wear masks and socialy distance, you will wont you ?

oh yes said the gang of rowdy 14 yo, who have no concept of mortality and imdiatly went back to sharing cans of coke, kissing behind the bike shed, spitting and fighting and generaly being 14

now come on, anyone with half a brain could have predicted that, but not our govenment experts, if they manage to supervise them in the school, which seems unlikely, the little Bs all walk home together

now they have had to close everything down again, which also wont make much differance

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Actually, i dont think this supercedes the Data proection act or the european version of it. (cant remmebr its acornym ever) So by that merit i dont think i am lawfully required to prove to a buisness i am exempt or not through a medical doccument. I certainly wouldnt nor reccomend anyone walk around with a medical report in their pocket on this matter, and thats a protected doccument under that act.

 

[jobo]

Actually, i dont think this supercedes the Data proection act or the european version of it. (cant remmebr its acornym ever) So by that merit i dont think i am lawfully required to prove to a buisness i am exempt or not through a medical doccument. I certainly wouldnt nor reccomend anyone walk around with a medical report in their pocket on this matter, and thats a protected doccument under that act.

well no you dont have to prove your exception, but then the businesses dont have to provided you with service either if you dont, which then leaves you to take court action under the disability act, you get a couple of grand a time, so may be a good pass time

there badges knocking about saying '' im exempt '' that you dont need to prove your medical condition to get, which businesses seem to accept

you may have to prove your exception if the police ticket you, or you may not the law is far from clear

 

[Steve]

Actually, i dont think this supercedes the Data proection act or the european version of it. (cant remmebr its acornym ever) So by that merit i dont think i am lawfully required to prove to a buisness i am exempt or not through a medical doccument. I certainly wouldnt nor reccomend anyone walk around with a medical report in their pocket on this matter, and thats a protected doccument under that act.

Not very familiar with the UK. Can you explain how an act that appears to be about protecting how your personal information is stored electronically relates to wearing a mask to help mitigate the spread of a virus during a pandemic? I'm not seeing a connection.