Resolved: Open handed strikes...

[CDKJudoka]

I fight and spar open handed, closing my hand before striking. I keep them open so I can grab if need be, and I block mostly with knife hand and would liek the option of a ridge hand or a knife hand strike if needed. I was taught to keeps hands open from the beginning, by my father, and I kept that philosophy while learning TKD. I used to get yelled at for it till it was found that it was effective, for my use.

 

[HM2PAC]

Don't get me wrong, I strike with an open palm and use the heel of my hand very often, it's one of my favorite strikes. However I'm a full grown male, not a child. I have a fully developed skeletal system, not one that is still forming.

Those of you who teach MA, have the awesome responsibility of teaching people how to properly defend themselves. With that comes more responsibility, especially where children are concerned, to not teach techniques that carry a significant risk of permanent damage to the practitioner.

I understand that with the fighting arts, nothing is going to be completely safe, and injuries will occur. My point is that if a technique, properly executed, carries the potential of damaging a child's hand permanently, why would you teach it?

 

[CDKJudoka]

Don't get me wrong, I strike with an open palm and use the heel of my hand very often, it's one of my favorite strikes. However I'm a full grown male, not a child. I have a fully developed skeletal system, not one that is still forming.

Those of you who teach MA, have the awesome responsibility of teaching people how to properly defend themselves. With that comes more responsibility, especially where children are concerned, to not teach techniques that carry a significant risk of permanent damage to the practitioner.

I understand that with the fighting arts, nothing is going to be completely safe, and injuries will occur. My point is that if a technique, properly executed, carries the potential of damaging a child's hand permanently, why would you teach it?

The same could be said for anything done in the martial arts, be it a closed fist, open fist, or kick. In my opinion, any strike, either improperly taught or improperly performed, will cause damage regardless of age. I started MA when I was 12 years old, and was far from fully grown. Think about kids who start out as judoka. They are taught throws that could cause permanent damage, as well as breakfalls. Anyone who has attempted a shoulder roll incorrectly could probably attest to the pain it can cause the back and the neck. I know I have hurt myself doing breakfalls incorrectly.

 

[HM2PAC]

My point is that a PROPERLY performed palm strike can over time cause damage if it is done repeatedly.

 

[CDKJudoka]

My point is that a PROPERLY performed palm strike can over time cause damage if it is done repeatedly.

Same goes for a straight punch if you think about it. Show me an old TMA master, and I will show you a man with little or no feeling in his hands.

 

[HM2PAC]

DarkPhoenix wrote:

Same goes for a straight punch if you think about it. Show me an old TMA master, and I will show you a man with little or no feeling in his hands.

Not from hitting a surface with a straight on punch. The digital nerves are protected under the metacarpal heads. Digital nerves are also strictly sensory and if damaged do not pose any risk of muscular dysfunction.

Again, a palm strike is completely different in the risk it poses.

I've seen this with carpenters, plumbers, and martial artists. I've seen it from average Joe Shmoe who was unlucky enough to slip on ice and land on his Hamate and crush the Ulnar nerve.


The original post is also asking about teaching open palm rather than closed fist to beginners and why or why not to do it. I think all beginners should learn open palm strikes. However, they should not be the mainstay rather than a closed fist , for the reasons I have cited.

 

[firerex]

im not really sure which is safer for beginnners however i can say that open handed techniques are stronger and r more legal to use when attacked than a closed fist

 

[kaizasosei]

a strike can be easily rendered ineffective if there is any discrepancy of positioning. Even 2 cm is enough to completely change a strike even an angle of 1 or two degrees can make a strike less effective.
however, the more strikes that one trains, the more one can adapt to the situation at hand. Open handed strikes can be just as devastating as knuckle punches. not all strikes even require maximum power, like a jab setup, there are plenty of strikes that can help to get the upper hand and follow up with more powerful techniques if not break the spirit of the opponent or simply keep an opponent at bay.

Éven if your hands are tied behind your back, if you telegraph a strike strong enough against an unsuspecting assailant, he may well keep away for a while. There are many different strikes. Bbt and certain styles of kungfu have the most diverse assortment of strikes and grabs.

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[Aefibird]

I'm really asking if punching should be the primary method of striking with hands in a TKD class.

In my old TKD school (WTF) the majority of hand techniques practised were closed fist - punches or back fist bening the most common.

However, at my new TKD school (an independent), we practice a lot of hand strikes (many more than at the WTF club and basically as many as at my Karate club), the majority of which are done as open hand techniques, such as spear hand, ridge hand, knife hand, thumb strikes, palm heel, slaps etc etc.

I much prefer the training at my current TKD school with regards to the techniques practiced than in comparison to my previous club.

 

[redantstyle]

The reason I say this is striking with an open palm can lead to a rather nasty injury referred to as Ulnar Hammer Syndrome. Essentially a small wrist bone at the base of the palm is broken and is pressed against the ulnar nerve. This leads to numbness in the ring and little fingers, and grip weakness as the ulnar nerve innervates a few of the small muscles in the hand.

hmmm...i'm not entirely sure, especially since you seem like you are, but i strike with what i believe to be the end of the ulnar bone itself. like a shuto, but i dont hit with my hand at all. and i have busted my hand up pretty good in my younger days, including the knuckles and metacarpals. i even drove my whole hand back into itself one time...i have a rather large mass of bone where my metacarpals join the wrist bones.

but the ulnar prominence is like a rock.

is this the type of strike you are talking about?

 

[K-man]

Yes, definitely. I've toyed with the idea of replacing the standard karate punches that were carried over, along with much other baggage, into TKD, with vertical fist punches in my own teaching, because I'm pretty well persuaded that the wrist/forearm bone alignment issues give a decisive advantage to the vertical fist configuration. We're well past the days, I have the impression, when anyone takes seriously the idea that a bare twisting fist can do more damage, add more power from the rotation, etc. than a non-twisting fist (that was the explanation I heard when I was first exposed to karate in the 1960s—people would intone this kind of story with quasi-religious solemnity, even though it was apparent, when I tried the punching motion they were demonstrating, that there was tension and discomfort in the action, and it didn't actually feel all that secure).

I have introduced the vertical fist to my lessons. I feel that it can deliver more force and my understanding is that the alignment of the radius and ulnar bones in the vertical fist is strongest.
For new students we start with clenched fists to minimise the chance of injury, particularly during paired work, however later I prefer open hand because the body is more relaxed with open hands and your movements are generally that much faster.
For self defence application, teaching open hand techniques makes a lot of sense. For a start, a lot of people, particularly women and children, cannot deliver a lot of power in the punch. A good open hand hit, delivered to somewhere like the ear or a heel palm to the nose,will at least have good shock value and hopefully enable an escape from danger.

 

[HM2PAC]

redantstyle wrote:

hmmm...i'm not entirely sure, especially since you seem like you are, but i strike with what i believe to be the end of the ulnar bone itself. like a shuto, but i dont hit with my hand at all. and i have busted my hand up pretty good in my younger days, including the knuckles and metacarpals. i even drove my whole hand back into itself one time...i have a rather large mass of bone where my metacarpals join the wrist bones.

but the ulnar prominence is like a rock.

is this the type of strike you are talking about?

Yes, that is what I am talking about. What you are actually striking with is a small bone called the Pisiform. The distal end of the Ulna is actually a dorsal structure, you wouldn't be able to strike with it unless you were performing a back fist with the wrist flexed down, like a Crane's Head.

The risk is that the Ulnar Nerve runs under the Pisiform and Hamate bones. You are using the protection for a rather involved nerve as a mallet. Many people do this forever and never have a problem, but many people also damage the Ulnar Nerve and end up with permanent damage to their hand that makes tool use difficult and their grip strength weak.

 

[redantstyle]

well, thank you very much for that information.