Relaxed fighting and sparing in the flow state.

[Tony Dismukes]

It may be entertaining if it were track & field, but this is combat.

Lyoto Machida is 24-8 with a 50% finishing percentage in professional fights against some of the best fighters in the world.

Stephen Thompson is 14-3 with a 57% finishing percentage in professional fights against high level opponents.

Maybe they're not entertaining for your personal tastes, but they're fighting very effectively. Come back after you've knocked out guys like Vitor Belfort, Randy Couture, and Rich Franklin and you can explain the difference between combat and track & field to us.

Well for Machida, his brand of Karate is his family's legacy. It would be a slap in the face to his father and his family name if he said Karate sucked *** or something. He will continue to teach Karate kata until the day he dies & pass it on to his children. It's just how it's done and it pays the bills to sell belts. Many people are scared to fight and just want a curriculum to get pay for belt promotions. It's a win-win situation. I'm just saying that it's a waste of time if you just want to fight, and fight soon.

Now you've switched to argument by assertion. Personally I prefer sticking to evidence.

Earlier in the thread, you stated that training kata might be a bad idea for developing fighting skills and was at least a waste of time. When asked for evidence, you stated that you looked to MMA for your evidence. When presented with a couple of top MMA fighters who train with kata, you changed your tune to discussing how they didn't entertain you. Now you're asserting that Machida trains kata just for the sake of family tradition and making money, but that he doesn't believe they help his fighting ability? Maybe you're right, but you have presented zero evidence to support your thesis. Might be time to start qualifying your claims as opinion rather than fact.

You think doing push ups is the same as kata? Kata is like shadowboxing and neither is like doing pushups.

Kata, like shadowboxing, pushups, burpees, speed bag work, yoga, animal walks, hand conditioning, swimming, and many other forms of training, are all tools to prepare for a fight, not something you do in a fight. It's reasonable to argue that a particular form of training doesn't do a good job of helping you prepare for a fight. It's not so reasonable to argue that it's no good because you don't see people doing it in the actual fight.

 

[Flying Crane]

The why do you care so much about what I say and keep typing essays about it?

Yeah. Grow up.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yea, I think Kata is antiquated, waste of time but great for selling belt promotions to pay the bills.

I've never seen a test that was only kata. Do those exist?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Punching at the hips, then retracting to the hips while standing in horse stance or whatever.....let see you fight like that.

You don't understand drills, do you?

 

[Anarax]

Nice try, but matching the amount = don't care either way.

So at the very least a six-figure contract = UFC doesn't care? Makes perfect sense

Avoiding exciting engagements often and clearly waiting for the last 30 seconds of each round to commit to engagement = running away.

Do you have videos of this? You keep saying it but I'm not aware of him doing this.

Then why do these same Karatechoppers such as Machida and Wonderbread, often get booed so loudly that the mic can't even pick up what they say in their cage interviews

Again do you have videos of this? Not just the occasional boos that might have happened, but the continuous/constant boos that you have repeatedly stated. Rarely when the crowd did boo it was directed towards the judges not scoring the bout the way they liked.

 

[FriedRice]

Yeah. Grow up.

I'll try grandpa.

 

[FriedRice]

Lyoto Machida is 24-8 with a 50% finishing percentage in professional fights against some of the best fighters in the world.

Stephen Thompson is 14-3 with a 57% finishing percentage in professional fights against high level opponents.

Maybe they're not entertaining for your personal tastes, but they're fighting very effectively. Come back after you've knocked out guys like Vitor Belfort, Randy Couture, and Rich Franklin and you can explain the difference between combat and track & field to us.

You were doing ok until this part about "come back after you've knocked out guys like Belfort, etc....". So what does this suggest? No fan can criticize Pro athletes unless they've accomplished similar feats? I'd have to be at the level of an NFL starter first before I can say certain teams or players suck and boring to watch? NBA too? I can't even play basketball. See how silly this is?

Now you've switched to argument by assertion. Personally I prefer sticking to evidence.

Earlier in the thread, you stated that training kata might be a bad idea for developing fighting skills and was at least a waste of time. When asked for evidence, you stated that you looked to MMA for your evidence. When presented with a couple of top MMA fighters who train with kata, you changed your tune to discussing how they didn't entertain you.

No, I said that those fighters grew up in Karate gym, which was why they had to go through kata, with Machida, it's his family's business/legacy.

Now you're asserting that Machida trains kata just for the sake of family tradition and making money, but that he doesn't believe they help his fighting ability? Maybe you're right, but you have presented zero evidence to support your thesis. Might be time to start qualifying your claims as opinion rather than fact.

Already did. Evidence being, he doesn't chamber at the hips and punches from there....back & forth.

Kata, like shadowboxing, pushups, burpees, speed bag work, yoga, animal walks, hand conditioning, swimming, and many other forms of training, are all tools to prepare for a fight, not something you do in a fight. It's reasonable to argue that a particular form of training doesn't do a good job of helping you prepare for a fight. It's not so reasonable to argue that it's no good because you don't see people doing it in the actual fight.

Explain to me what shadowboxing is.

 

[FriedRice]

So at the very least a six-figure contract = UFC doesn't care? Makes perfect sense

Glad you agree.

Do you have videos of this? You keep saying it but I'm not aware of him doing this.

Yes, but you're not worth my time of digging them up and having to watch boring *** Machida fights to edit them, then uploading just to prove it.

Again do you have videos of this? Not just the occasional boos that might have happened, but the continuous/constant boos that you have repeatedly stated. Rarely when the crowd did boo it was directed towards the judges not scoring the bout the way they liked.

No.

 

[FriedRice]

Typically, that's not a kata - that's a leg conditioning exercise.

So you're saying that punching at the hips while in horse stance is typically, "leg conditioning exercise"??????

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Already did. Evidence being, he doesn't chamber at the hips and punches from there....back & forth.

Which just shows a lack of understanding of that drill.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So you're saying that punching at the hips while in horse stance is typically, "leg conditioning exercise"??????

Yes, that's what he's saying. And I agree, though I'd add it also helps with arm (mostly shoulder) conditioning and can help with the core, as well.

In any case, it's largely an exercise, that also happens to promote some specific mechanics.

 

[TSDTexan]

Yea, I think Kata is antiquated, waste of time but great for selling belt promotions to pay the bills.

This is a point you keep reiterating.
Earlier, you said kata is used to sell belts.
This is a half truth, that is more false then you realize.

A counterpoint is kata predate the belt system that Dr. Kano, founder of Judo created. By hundreds of years. So it wasn't used to sell belts in Okinawa prior to it going to Japan... nor was it true, for a vary long time in Japan. While things change, I cannot speak to present day practices in the mainland.

In Okinawa, at the time of itosu Anko, Karate had just made the transition from a private, and nonpublic art to a state sponsored art taught for free to middle schoolers, high schoolers and the only ones who paid were college students (College tuition was not free.

At the same time in Okinawa (even until now) you had family art brands of karate that were handed down from father to firstborn. Or uncle to nephew, if the father had died.

Again, no money, and no belts.
The belt system serves as a marker of progression through a curriculum.

I know a certain gentleman, who was living in Okinawa, and during his first month in Okinawa, he spent an hour doing his makiwara practice daily, like clockwork at 7 am.

He was approached by his neighbor, who was an 8th dan, and simply because of his steadfast diligence and methodical self training that was observed...
he was invited to become a live in student. He lived there 9 years and that was free training, food, and housing... The instructor believed that this student would take his branch of Karate back to the USA, and keep it alive.

This teacher had no sons, or nephews... and wanted to keep it alive.

This American teaches with no belts, and charges 25.00 a month. He only teaches 8 forms, and the bunkai. He was in Okinawa from 2000 to 2008.

The teacher died in 2011. And from my understanding live in disciples, are treated like members of the household. Most choose to voluntarily contribute financially to the household if they are working... but some just train full time 55 plus hours a week.


Another point... in Korea, at the Osan Air Base, in the 1950s and 1960s Chuck Norris, and Floyd Guidry... and the rest of the American classmates learned Korean Karate (TSD) on base for free. At first training was done on the basketball court, and then later a karate gym was established.
Floyd spent 12 years there, and never paid a dime to learn his Kata or in Korean... Hyungs.

This still happens at American bases all the time, All over the world... some clubs have dues... some don't.

So this point is a poor argument.

I get that you dont like forms.... but if you want to argue about it... you need better arguments.

 

[Anarax]

Yes, but you're not worth my time of digging them up and having to watch boring *** Machida fights to edit them, then uploading just to prove it.

It's not about if I'm worth your time, but is proving your point worth your time. Going off your comments and complete lack of proof it seems you don't care about proving your points. The only thing you've done is bash an entire style of Martial Arts that you clearly dislike while at the same time demonstrating your complete lack of knowledge.

 

[TSDTexan]

It's not about if I'm worth your time, but is proving your point worth your time. Going off your comments and complete lack of proof it seems you don't care about proving your points. The only thing you've done is bash an entire style of Martial Arts that you clearly dislike while at the same time demonstrating your complete lack of knowledge.

Strong claims demand strong evidence.
Marshalling evidence, or strong evidence... that would be work, and effort.
It's far easier to remain confident, and remain ignorant.

imho...
He is a drive by critic. Happy to throw stones at TMA practices and methodd but he is totally predetermined in mindset.
And almost trollish in this thread.

His mind is closed to hearing us or having his worldview challenged.

He has drank the MMA coolaid that is offered at a lot of places, and simply doesn't care enough to offer a fair hearing on the subject.

Dont expect efforts on his part, especially, if it would upset his applecart.

And even though, dialog with him is pretty much a lost cause... it is still useful to debunk his claims using evidence, and logic for the sake others who maybe uninformed.

and he didn't just bash kata in Karate. If you take a swipe at kata, you are swiping at Forms in MA.
So he has swiped at Tul in CMA, Poomse, Palgwe and Hyung in KMA, the Forms of Muy Boran, the Forms/Two man in Arnis or other Fma.

 

[pdg]

Poomse, Palgwe and Hyung in KMA

Tul are in KMA too, but the spelling may vary

 

[TSDTexan]

Tul are in KMA too, but the spelling may vary

You are correct, and I am sure in China they probably have 12 names besides tul for patterns.

 

[pdg]

You are correct, and I am sure in China they probably have 12 names besides tul for patterns.

I'd feel somewhat cheated if there were only 12...