Ranking

[jks9199]

And I would be even more hestiant with 2 posts to ask a guy with 5000 posts what his background is. Maybe that is just me.

While I agree with the majority of your post... I've got to take issue with the logic here.

Raw numbers of posts don't necessarily mean much, on any message board. Sometimes, two members of a forum will get into a exchange that's better suited to email, and post 20 or more times in a day...but they're not really imparting information to anyone else. Or, there are always those people who have to add a comment, even if it amounts to "what he said!". On one forum that I participate in, many members feel it necessary to award reputation points & post when they do... Again -- that could inflate the numbers of posts.

On the other end of the equation, since this is a ninjutsu board... Hatsumi (forgive any errors of etiquette; they're unintentional) could i theory sign up tomorrow and start posting. Despite his acknowledged mastery and knowledge -- he'd have very few posts! Would that mean he's not credible?

The best advice (often in real life as well as message boards) is to assess a person's input based on what you see and what they say. I've made no secret in my very few posts on these particular threads (I post more in some of the more general areas) that I don't and never have trained in any of the current forms of ninjutsu/taijutsu; it's just something that I was once fascinated by. And I find the discussions here to be very interesting.

 

[Aikironin]

You are right raw numbers don't mean much, but if one takes the time to read the forums and check things before asking a question, a) more than likely one will determine who has valid things to say like and who really doesn't and b) odds are good a certain question has been asked before.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

On the other end of the equation, since this is a ninjutsu board... Hatsumi (forgive any errors of etiquette; they're unintentional) could i theory sign up tomorrow and start posting. Despite his acknowledged mastery and knowledge -- he'd have very few posts! Would that mean he's not credible?

Though of course, he is unable to write in English, has not been able to do so before and very likely is not going to be able to in the future.

 

[eyebeams]

*Sigh*

Is this sigh because it's untrue, or because you personally don't fancy it?

It's either possible to get Bujinkan rank through Quest or it isn't. I am as suspicious of the vague dissent about this from Buinkan practitioners as I am of Quest's vagueness about how this "protocol" is implemented. So unless each party shows their hands and describes, factually, what the deal is, this discussion is useless.

 

[Don Roley]

It's either possible to get Bujinkan rank through Quest or it isn't.

It is not.

Go ahead and ask Hatsumi. It may be true that in the past that Bujinkan rank has been handed out by Hayes. That does not mean that Hayes got them directly from Hatsumi. And if you had heard some of the things that I have heard here in Japan, you would not be betting heavily on people in Toshindo being able to get rank in Bujinkan for very long- if ever again.

There is a lot going on, and I do not have the full picture. Nor can I point people to ways they can confirm what I know for themselves. But if you want to get into Toshindo in order to get rank in another art I would not think you will be happy at the events coming up very soon.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

It is not.

Go ahead and ask Hatsumi. It may be true that in the past that Bujinkan rank has been handed out by Hayes. That does not mean that Hayes got them directly from Hatsumi. And if you had heard some of the things that I have heard here in Japan, you would not be betting heavily on people in Toshindo being able to get rank in Bujinkan for very long- if ever again.

There is a lot going on, and I do not have the full picture. Nor can I point people to ways they can confirm what I know for themselves. But if you want to get into Toshindo in order to get rank in another art I would not think you will be happy at the events coming up very soon.

Bottom line is that it is known that Hatsumi Soke has taken down Steve Hayes Judan tile and in the past he has told people not to train with him. I do not understand how the message could not be clearer.

 

[eyebeams]

Bottom line is that it is known that Hatsumi Soke has taken down Steve Hayes Judan tile and in the past he has told people not to train with him. I do not understand how the message could not be clearer.

That would be from Hatsumi allegedly sending certificates after the quasi-sorta-hamon incident. It would also come from the fact that stripping Hayes of his judan does not magically get rid of every ranking he has issued, including those of anyone able to issue rank who may be under him. As Toshindo rank is apparently given separately, I don't see how a Toshindo ranking makes a difference, especially given the fact that there are many, many Bujinkan practitioners with rankings in (and who still actively participate in) other arts.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Personally this issue does not affect me one bit. Steve Hayes did alot for the Bujinkan but he has also done things that have hurt it. (or at least not helped it ie. misinformation)

All I know coming out of Japan is that he is not Bujinkan at this time and his Judan tile was removed. That is enough for me. I still enjoyed his books even with the obvious mistakes and he certainly was instrumental in getting alot of people into the Bujinkan. Those factors make me still appreciate what he did. Unfortuantely he seems to have moved away from the Bujinkan and that is okay too. (it is his choice after all)

 

[Cryozombie]

Is this sigh because it's untrue, or because you personally don't fancy it?

How about because I know the can of worms that post opened up.

My personal knowlage, right or wrong, is this:

I asked one of the Shidoshi who is with Hatsumi on a regular basis, He told me Hatsumi said TO HIM that Toshindo is Not Bujinakn, and Bujinkan practitioners should not study Toshindo.

So AFAIK Toshindo cannot give Bujinkan ranks... but that wasnt the reason for the sigh. I'm with Brian, it doesnt effect me at all... so I dont really care... and wish it had not been brought up, AGAIN, but rather the old posts about it be read.

 

[Aikironin]

essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all. Just like what Brian said. Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on. When I was a junior student in the arts I used to ask my instructor about these sorts of things, and he would always reply, I will tell you when you are older. And when I got older he never did, and by that time I didn't really care either. What matters is that you train, and that you have a good relationship with your sensei, and dojo mates. The rest of this crap comes and goes, but your training should not. If you have a strong relationship with Hatsumi, great. If you follow Hayes' teachings, good for you as well. Unless you are one of the lucky few who trains under these men directly, don't worry about it, just train in whatever art you train in. Both of these men have very long shadows that we most likely will never eclipse and so shouldn't speculate as to their agendas and relationships with one another.

 

[Cryozombie]

If you have a strong relationship with Hatsumi, great. If you follow Hayes' teachings, good for you as well. Unless you are one of the lucky few who trains under these men directly, don't worry about it, just train in whatever art you train in. Both of these men have very long shadows that we most likely will never eclipse and so shouldn't speculate as to their agendas and relationships with one another.

I agree... what I don't understand, and maybe some Toshindo guys can enlighten me...

Whats with the desire for all the TSD guys to have Bujinkan AND Toshindo rank certs? Do you need 2? It doesnt make sense to me, in a way that Studying say, Karate with the American Karate Association of America, and getting your ranks from them, but then going to the Japanese Karate Association of Japan and asking for rank certs from them...

What purpose does it serve, other than the Ego gratification of saying "I have rank in 2 arts!" when you've only studied one?

 

[jks9199]

essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all. Just like what Brian said. Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on. When I was a junior student in the arts I used to ask my instructor about these sorts of things, and he would always reply, I will tell you when you are older. And when I got older he never did, and by that time I didn't really care either. What matters is that you train, and that you have a good relationship with your sensei, and dojo mates.

One of the greatest disillusionments in my life was moving up in my system, and learning of and having to participate in (to some degree -- I stay out of as much as I can!) the politics.

Sadly, any organization will develop politics as time goes by... What I've found important is staying true to my teacher, and thereby staying true to his teacher. And to (sometimes) distinguish between the art and the artists...

 

[eyebeams]

I agree... what I don't understand, and maybe some Toshindo guys can enlighten me...

Whats with the desire for all the TSD guys to have Bujinkan AND Toshindo rank certs? Do you need 2? It doesnt make sense to me, in a way that Studying say, Karate with the American Karate Association of America, and getting your ranks from them, but then going to the Japanese Karate Association of Japan and asking for rank certs from them...

What purpose does it serve, other than the Ego gratification of saying "I have rank in 2 arts!" when you've only studied one?

So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?

What I can say is this...it always fascinates me how all these little "Bujinkans within the Bujinkan" seem to appear from time to time.

 

[Don Roley]

essentially I have found that most political things don't really affect me at all. Just like what Brian said. Things tend to be things discussed ad nauseum by people who "heard" such and such or "read" somewhere that... and the list goes on.

Well in this case, the original poster really wanted to know if he could continue to get ranked in Bujinkan while training in Toshindo. So it does kind of have an affect on him. Telling him that he should not care and just go to training is not the best thing since it may have a huge impact on him later on.

If you really do not believe what you hear, then you need to go to the source. You should not ignore everything you hear on the internet when the problem might be as large as this. Instead you should try to get the best answer you can before you commit to training.

There are ways of writing directly to Hatsumi. You need to write the letter in Japanese- but that can be done with the help of a Japanese foriegn exchange student studying at a local university. Most will be willing to translate a simple letter into Japanese for about the cost of a double latte and a chance to ask you questions about English. Many just want frineds and someone they can call on when they get over their heads with English. There are other details, but the language one is the biggest problem. If you really care about the matter, you should take the time to ask Hatsumi himself if Toshindo is Bujinkan, if you can get rank in Bujinkan for your Toshindo experiences and everything else that you think might imact your training down the line.

 

[Cryozombie]

So you'll be raising similar objections to Phil Legare (Shinken Taijutsu), Richard Van Donk (FMA) and their organizations, right?

I dont know the deal with Phil Legare, the RVD issue isnt QUITE the same.

I dont think there is anything wrong with studying multiple arts, BTW, but when you study one art, and then look for "free" rank in another organization because its art is similar... thats what I am questioning the validity of.

 

[eyebeams]

I dont know the deal with Phil Legare, the RVD issue isnt QUITE the same.

I dont think there is anything wrong with studying multiple arts, BTW, but when you study one art, and then look for "free" rank in another organization because its art is similar... thats what I am questioning the validity of.

I think that it's now time for the Toshindo people to come out and explain exactly how Bujinkan training works in their org, since this is not at all clear to me.

 

[Aikironin]

I think that it's now time for the Toshindo people to come out and explain exactly how Bujinkan training works in their org, since this is not at all clear to me.

I think we need to realize what Mr. Roley was saying when he said

"Well in this case, the original poster really wanted to know if he could continue to get ranked in Bujinkan while training in Toshindo."

and not an attack on Toshindo Practitioners to defend their style's use of Bujinkan. As at best, they are practitioners of the art, not the orginator of it.

 

[lalom]

As Don Roley mentioned, the original poster wanted to know if he could get ranked in Bujinkan if he trained in To-Shin Do. However, I think the reason for him asking was because he couldn't find a Bujinkan instructor reasonably close enough for him.

I don't think he was desiring to rank in To-Shin Do, at least from what I gather in his post. He only wanted to rank in Bujinkan, not both arts.

 

[Shizen]

I don't think he was desiring to rank in To-Shin Do, at least from what I gather in his post. He only wanted to rank in Bujinkan, not both arts.[/quote]

This is correct. I purchased the To Shin Do course because i wanted a course that I could easily learn from and was taught well. I was not interested in ranking when i bought it, otherwise I would have bought the RVD set. But after seeing how both him and SKH taught things on video i liked SKH approach better which is why i bought it. But i heard that with SKH coarse you could get Bujinkan ranking so i had to ask. But in this I found a good group to train with now that I did not know existed until this thead. Thank you