Random Bunkai Jutsu Thread

[Makalakumu]

This thread is dedicated to those times when a random application from one of your forms pops into your head and you just have to write it down or it will be lost. Also, don't be afraid to toss down any ideas you might have about this more or that move. There doesn't have to be any more structure then that. Toss out your technical ideas and lets discuss...

upnorthkyosa

 

[exile]

Great idea, UpN! Have been hoping something like this would crystallize. I suspect there are a number of people on the board now who would have things to contribute here. And I assume that this might also be an appropriate place to post queries about bunkai that have been on one's mind for a bit?

I have to finish up some work, but will be back later with some things I've been thinking about in connection with the infamous `double block' that begins Pyung Ahn Ee Dan/Pinan Shodan/Heian Nidan—as well as Palgwe Sa Jang!

 

[MBuzzy]

Please tell me if this is a standard Bunkai....but I just realized it recently. In Pyang Ahn Sa Dan, when you turn to go back south on the 45....the first movement has both hands crossed, palms out (I know that many schools do this differently), from there (usually with a transition move or two) the next movement is a front kick and two punches.

The easy answer (and the one that I was given) was that this is a grab to the shirt or dobahk, then kicking the attacker and punching twice.

Well, first if you are holding on to the guys shirt, there is no way you can do a full front kick....second......who grabs like that???

I was originally taught this move to cross both hands, palms away from you, then uncross, making fists and rotating so that the palms are away from you. One hand then flipped over and pulled down to the side to simulate sliding your hands into the dobahk, grabbing in your fists, then pulling the attacker toward you for the kick. Makes no sense.

I do see this movement as a good escape from a grab. If you are being grabbed by the shirt with both hands, crossing your hands between their arms, then twisting and uncrossing would break the grab, with both of the attackers arms now out to their sides, this leaves them open to a kick to the stomack which would double them over and make room for the two punches.

This may be standard for everyone else, but I was proud of myself!!! The only applications that I was ever given in Korea was "Punch is punch, kick is kick, block is block."

 

[Makalakumu]

Please tell me if this is a standard Bunkai....but I just realized it recently. In Pyang Ahn Sa Dan, when you turn to go back south on the 45....the first movement has both hands crossed, palms out (I know that many schools do this differently), from there (usually with a transition move or two) the next movement is a front kick and two punches.

The easy answer (and the one that I was given) was that this is a grab to the shirt or dobahk, then kicking the attacker and punching twice.

Well, first if you are holding on to the guys shirt, there is no way you can do a full front kick....second......who grabs like that???

I was originally taught this move to cross both hands, palms away from you, then uncross, making fists and rotating so that the palms are away from you. One hand then flipped over and pulled down to the side to simulate sliding your hands into the dobahk, grabbing in your fists, then pulling the attacker toward you for the kick. Makes no sense.

I do see this movement as a good escape from a grab. If you are being grabbed by the shirt with both hands, crossing your hands between their arms, then twisting and uncrossing would break the grab, with both of the attackers arms now out to their sides, this leaves them open to a kick to the stomack which would double them over and make room for the two punches.

This may be standard for everyone else, but I was proud of myself!!! The only applications that I was ever given in Korea was "Punch is punch, kick is kick, block is block."

The thing that I think that you are missing is that each of these movements presents opportunities at completely different applications. For example, the crossing hands motion could be a choke or it could be a double block or a double grap or a block and a grab or a block and a strike.

Also, certain techniques like kicks or punches aren't neccesarily directed or even performed exactly like is shown in the form in real life. The reasoning behind this is complex. The simple answer is that it has to do with their syncretic lineage...and that is not something that is simple to work out because you really need to look at other versions of these forms.

The bottom line is that a front kick, may very well be a knee strike to the sternum. If you think about the positions you move your leg in order to perform a front kick, it makes sense. And it makes even more sense because the "front kick" is actually showing a technique that you would do to someone who has gotten away from your initial strike.

Now, couple that insight with the following two strikes. You have got yourself a genuine fighting applicable bunkai.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Please tell me if this is a standard Bunkai....but I just realized it recently. In Pyang Ahn Sa Dan, when you turn to go back south on the 45....the first movement has both hands crossed, palms out (I know that many schools do this differently), from there (usually with a transition move or two) the next movement is a front kick and two punches.

The easy answer (and the one that I was given) was that this is a grab to the shirt or dobahk, then kicking the attacker and punching twice.

Well, first if you are holding on to the guys shirt, there is no way you can do a full front kick....second......who grabs like that???

I was originally taught this move to cross both hands, palms away from you, then uncross, making fists and rotating so that the palms are away from you. One hand then flipped over and pulled down to the side to simulate sliding your hands into the dobahk, grabbing in your fists, then pulling the attacker toward you for the kick. Makes no sense.

I do see this movement as a good escape from a grab. If you are being grabbed by the shirt with both hands, crossing your hands between their arms, then twisting and uncrossing would break the grab, with both of the attackers arms now out to their sides, this leaves them open to a kick to the stomack which would double them over and make room for the two punches.

This may be standard for everyone else, but I was proud of myself!!! The only applications that I was ever given in Korea was "Punch is punch, kick is kick, block is block."

If you're in a good front stance, you should have no trouble pulling off the front kick. This grab works whether the person's wearing a dobok, an open jacket, or even a loose shirt. You cross your hands at the wrists, palms facing toward you, then grab. As you step down into front stance (which keeps your kicking foot at the right distance as well as unbalancing the person with your front knee between his legs), you snap your arms apart, pulling the collar tight to choke. The turnover of the "back" hand (corresponding to the back foot) pulls the person down as you deliver the kick. Pick up your knee first, and you should have no trouble with it. I've seen this demonstrated in class, and have had it demonstrated on me.

Alternatively, you could be grabbing a person's shirt and tie, so the turnover and pull down would then be pulling on the tie, possibly increasing the choke. It's not an all-purpose hyung application, but it's a good one to know, given its effectiveness. Work on technique before speed, though.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

If you're in a good front stance, you should have no trouble pulling off the front kick. This grab works whether the person's wearing a dobok, an open jacket, or even a loose shirt. You cross your hands at the wrists, palms facing toward you, then grab. As you step down into front stance (which keeps your kicking foot at the right distance as well as unbalancing the person with your front knee between his legs), you snap your arms apart, pulling the collar tight to choke. The turnover of the "back" hand (corresponding to the back foot) pulls the person down as you deliver the kick. Pick up your knee first, and you should have no trouble with it. I've seen this demonstrated in class, and have had it demonstrated on me.

Alternatively, you could be grabbing a person's shirt and tie, so the turnover and pull down would then be pulling on the tie, possibly increasing the choke. It's not an all-purpose hyung application, but it's a good one to know, given its effectiveness. Work on technique before speed, though.

Tang Soo!

It's still a tight fit, but if it works for you, great. I prefer the knee strike myself, initially, turning into a front kick to tag an escapee.

 

[Makalakumu]

Okay, here is one from Pyung Ahn Cho Dan. At the end, there is a series of ha dan soo do mahkees. Both hands come back, one to the ear and one to the hip and then come forward with the hand by the ear going low and the hand on the hip coming to rest just under the solar plexus.

Defending against a grab and strike. Uke grabs the lapel and throws a hard strike to the face. Tori grabs uke's elbow on the grabbing hand and pulls him off balance by turning and bringing weight back into hu gul jaseh. He also defends the punch with the hand that comes up.

Next, tori slips hand over the grabbing arm of the attacker and hammers down on the elbow in order to continue the off balance of uke. With his other hand he strike uke in the head.

Uke is now bent over and has released his grip or is tied up in an arm lock. Tori turns at 45 degrees and launches a soo do strike into ukes face.

 

[MBuzzy]

As you step down into front stance (which keeps your kicking foot at the right distance as well as unbalancing the person with your front knee between his legs), you snap your arms apart, pulling the collar tight to choke.

This is actually what brought this up for me...we learn a choke like that in Military self defense and it is a DIFFICULT choke. For it to be effective, the attacker has to be on the ground or against something and you have to grab very high on their collar.

Is there another way to make a shirt choke like that effective?

 

[crushing]

This is actually what brought this up for me...we learn a choke like that in Military self defense and it is a DIFFICULT choke. For it to be effective, the attacker has to be on the ground or against something and you have to grab very high on their collar.

Is there another way to make a shirt choke like that effective?

It doesn't have to be thought of as just a choke. Although the motion of the hands doesn't make it appear so, maybe you are going in for a clinch, or just enough of a garment grab to deliver the knee strike as UpNorth describe, or perhaps an up kick to the groin.

Another application could be a defense against a 'two-hand lapel grab', if you think of one of your hands going over the same side opponents arm then under the other to create a lever action to dislodge the grab as the other hand helps control and defend. Once the grab is broken then the kick is delivered, probably to the floating rib area. Or, still considering the 'two-hand lapel grab' you may be peeling the opponents hands off your lapels/jacket/shirt (overhand while maybe attacking Lung-8).

I hope I'm not too far off in these ideas. I haven't really thought about various bunkai possiblities until fairly recently.

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I echo crushing; the choke is the most straightforward and most common interpretation, but, and especially if you're going for the knee like upnorthkyosa suggested, you could also just be grabbing the shoulders/behind the neck.

@upnorthkyosa: I think someone posted a video about the pyong ahn cho dan (can we agree on an acronym?) low knife-hand blocks, somewhere before. It's the Feb 2007 "Martial Minute", IIRC --> http://www.martialminute.com
Still a good thing to include in this thread, though. A lot of people would just see it as practicing the same technique from different angles.

Tang Soo!

 

[Makalakumu]

One of my favorite throws is tai o toshi. It can be found in Bassai near the end where the performer is dropping very low and looks like he is doing a hammer fist to the ground. This throw works very well when you have your uke up on his toes. The U punch that preceeds the turn and hammerfist is actually a grab to the collar and a grab to the testicles. That'll get uke on his toes!

 

[Makalakumu]

One of the hardest moves to interpret in the form Chinto are the sequences near the end in crane stance where there is a spread up and down block a drawing in manuever a simultaneous front kick and hammerfist followed up a number of techniques from thrust punches, reverse punches, and short tight punches.

What are you supposed to be doing here? The applications are hidden because you don't fight exactly like this in real life. In terms of Itosu's rules of understanding bunkai...

1. Some moves show direct moves in self defense.
2. Some moves teach self defense principles.
3. Some moves condition the body.

This sequence is heavy on 2-3. Balance is something that is definitely being taught, but there are some useful principles as well as combat applications here as well.

In the first sequence with the spread block, this can be a number of things from a high block to a low block or block strike combinations that either go high block lower strike or lower block higher strike. Standing in crane stance is the follow up technique with is supposed to be performed with a drawing in technique. The actual follow up techniques are either a front kick to the knee to the points shown in the stance or a knee strike to the solar plexus.

The next series of techniques describe what to do if your opponent slips away. In the beginning sequence, lets say your drawing in technique fails, the form is showing you that you now have three options that can be used singly or in combination. You can kick, backfist, and/or step forward and lunge punch.

 

[Boomer]

H aving problems visualizing this. Perhaps it's because I'm from a Shotokan background and we do "Gankaku" as opposed to "Chinto".

Is it similar?

In the first sequence with the spread block, this can be a number of things from a high block to a low block or block strike combinations that either go high block lower strike or lower block higher strike.

I think what you call a "spread block" is our manji uke, a combination of low block and sweeping high block, but I'm not sure.

The bunkai we have for this is different from yours, and I will try to post video in the near future. I do like the idea of "if he slips away" though.
I hope we're speaking of the same movements....

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

H aving problems visualizing this. Perhaps it's because I'm from a Shotokan background and we do "Gankaku" as opposed to "Chinto".

Is it similar?

Except for a few minor details, it's exactly like what we call chinto/chinte (naming differences will never go away).

Good stuff on bassai/palche deh, upnorthkyosa. The other version I've heard of that, probably less effective, is that you're turning and sweeping someone behind you before smacking them while on the ground. Either way, that particular form is full of a lot of good stuff.

 

[Makalakumu]

H aving problems visualizing this. Perhaps it's because I'm from a Shotokan background and we do "Gankaku" as opposed to "Chinto".

Is it similar?

I think what you call a "spread block" is our manji uke, a combination of low block and sweeping high block, but I'm not sure.

The bunkai we have for this is different from yours, and I will try to post video in the near future. I do like the idea of "if he slips away" though.
I hope we're speaking of the same movements....

JT is correct. This is very close to our form and we are talking about the same moves. I'm curious as to what your application in shotokan is for this move. I never learned this form when I trained in shotokan.

 

[Boomer]

Good stuff.
I got busy this weekend, we had testing, so I wasn't able to get a video or pics up for our bunkai yet. Hopefully I can make that happen by Tuesday/Wednsday. It's as tough to visuallize as it is for me to write, I would think. So I'll rely on a short vid or pics.

I didn't even realize this thread was in a tang soo do forum. Thank you for letting me jump in here. Does tang soo do often use Japanese words like "bunkai" and "jutsu"?

 

[Makalakumu]

We do, because often we are forced to rely on Japanese or Okinawan sources for applications for our forms. Some Tangsoodoin will take these words and the knowledge that comes along with them and change it all to Korean, but I personally feel that is a bit disingenuous. This is why my school is such an ecclectic mix of language.

 

[Makalakumu]

The jump in Pyung Ahn Five uses the footwork and body movements for hane goshi. It then follows the throw up by indicating some ground and pound techniques. Admittedly, this isn't done in the best stance, but then those stances and hand work are showing multiple submissions from the top that could finish off a thrown opponent.

 

[exile]

Hey guys—don't want to go off topic too much, am still trying to put together this comparison of alternative bunkai for the first movement sequence of Pyung Ahn Ee Dan (= Pinan Shodan = Heian Nidan; also first sequence of Palgwe Sa Jang)... but meanwhile, terrific job on your new forum description. Only just saw it and really like it!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

We do, because often we are forced to rely on Japanese or Okinawan sources for applications for our forms. Some Tangsoodoin will take these words and the knowledge that comes along with them and change it all to Korean, but I personally feel that is a bit disingenuous. This is why my school is such an ecclectic mix of language.

Actually, from my experience when a Korean term isn't readily available we just use English. I've only seen a few people, like upnorthkyosa, who use all the Japanese terminology. I shy away from it because I want to remind myself that I'm not studying a Japanese style, but a Korean one.