Kata bunkai for self defense

[TimoS]

So you are suggesting there is a difference between forms and kata?

IMHO, there isn't that much of a difference. Okinawans most likely took the idea of long solo forms from Chinese martial arts. Also some kata, e.g. Seisan and Sanchin, are Chinese in origin

 

[Tez3]

So you are suggesting there is a difference between forms and kata?

Obviously there is a difference if there is no Bunkai in forms and they seem to serve a different purpose from kata.

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AW Shucks, I thought the thread was talking KARATE bunkai.... my bad....

Yes it's talking about kata for self defence which of course is Bunkai, we aren't talking about spirituality, mental training for life skills or anything else other than karate for self defence.

 

[TimoS]

Obviously there is a difference if there is no Bunkai in forms and they seem to serve a different purpose from kata.

I have no real experience from Chinese martial arts, but some of my friends are training in seven star praying mantis and my understanding is that they have applications to their forms. I'm also not quite sure what you mean that the forms in kung-fu serve a different purpose, when many of the kata in existence are in fact Chinese in origin.

 

[Tez3]

I have no real experience from Chinese martial arts, but some of my friends are training in seven star praying mantis and my understanding is that they have applications to their forms. I'm also not quite sure what you mean that the forms in kung-fu serve a different purpose, when many of the kata in existence are in fact Chinese in origin.

I didn't say that Chinese forms serve a different purpose I said that "Obviously there is a difference if there is no Bunkai in forms and they seem to serve a different purpose from kata." which is true isn't it?

 

[drop bear]

IMHO, there isn't that much of a difference. Okinawans most likely took the idea of long solo forms from Chinese martial arts. Also some kata, e.g. Seisan and Sanchin, are Chinese in origin

Yeah would have thought the same. Karate does seem to have this kata is perfect nonsense though. Which so far hasn't been reflected in the kung fu guys. Who look at it more like a training tool.

 

[drop bear]

Obviously there is a difference if there is no Bunkai in forms and they seem to serve a different purpose from kata.



Yes it's talking about kata for self defence which of course is Bunkai, we aren't talking about spirituality, mental training for life skills or anything else other than karate for self defence.

If the kung fu guys don't pull moves out of there kata and drill them I would be very surprised.

Which is bunkai to my understanding.

 

[ShotoNoob]

...Yes it's talking about kata for self defence which of course is Bunkai, we aren't talking about spirituality, mental training for life skills or anything else other than karate for self defence.

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And not about karate either....

 

[ShotoNoob]

Yeah would have thought the same. Karate does seem to have this kata is perfect nonsense though. Which so far hasn't been reflected in the kung fu guys. Who look at it more like a training tool.

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You should get out more....

 

[ShotoNoob]

@K-man & CO.

Our "official" bunkai for Seisan looks a bit like this:

. There are some differences, but they are quite minor. From these we can then extract some more realistic applications, but they should still use the same principles as in the official version.

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Now when you can fight like this and move so dynamically that the opponent can not react against your action, then you will know kata...
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EDIT: Good luck with that....

 

[Tez3]

Yeah would have thought the same. Karate does seem to have this kata is perfect nonsense though. Which so far hasn't been reflected in the kung fu guys. Who look at it more like a training tool.

No one has ever said kata is perfect, no one in karate thinks that at all, stop trying to muddy the waters by making silly comments. Nothing is perfect in anything.

 

[drop bear]

No one has ever said kata is perfect, no one in karate thinks that at all, stop trying to muddy the waters by making silly comments. Nothing is perfect in anything.

Really?

The system is perfect or it needs updating.

So the perfect kata is basically the theme here. Always has been. That is not muddying the waters it is just an observation on how it is described.

All very creationist.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So the perfect kata is basically the theme here. Always has been. That is not muddying the waters it is just an observation on how it is described.

Please point us to to an example of who is describing kata that way.

 

[Tez3]

Really?

The system is perfect or it needs updating.

So the perfect kata is basically the theme here. Always has been. That is not muddying the waters it is just an observation on how it is described.

All very creationist.

Really? What does 'all very creationist' mean?
No one has described kata as being perfect, why would they? I think that you are stirring here or trolling.

 

[drop bear]

Really? What does 'all very creationist' mean?
No one has described kata as being perfect, why would they? I think that you are stirring here or trolling.

Rubbish. You have been playing semantic games around a very simple idea.
It was created in a manner that we cant even hope to understand it. Let alone modify it.

That it the issue I have had in this whole theme

Creationist. God created man who then created sightly less and less perfect copies

Like kata created by the founder and understood slightly less and less by the students.

 

[drop bear]

Please point us to to an example of who is describing kata that way.

Ok. Please explain how this is an imperfect or mouldable idea.

I disagree totally. If you have to change the kata you haven't understood the kata. To change the kata you need far more understanding than most people will ever achieve. I have neither the time nor the understanding to either create a new kata or even modify the ones I have.

 

[Tez3]

Ok. Please explain how this is an imperfect or mouldable idea.

There's nothing in what you have quoted that says kata is 'perfect' or that anyone thinks it is. I'd say that changing a kata because you can't make it work is not the answer, rather you should study/practice/think at it until it does work, that's far from being perfect, that is working rather than having everything handed to you on a plate.
Bunkai does mean having to work, no one values something that is easy and cheap.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Ok. Please explain how this is an imperfect or mouldable idea.

How about you just answer my question instead of deflecting.

 

[TimoS]

It was created in a manner that we cant even hope to understand it

That's simply not true. It requires lots of work and a good instructor, but understanding is not impossible

 

[Tez3]

Rubbish. You have been playing semantic games around a very simple idea.
It was created in a manner that we cant even hope to understand it. Let alone modify it.

That it the issue I have had in this whole theme

Creationist. God created man who then created sightly less and less perfect copies

Like kata created by the founder and understood slightly less and less by the students.

ROFLMAO. Luckily in my style our founder didn't depart this life until 1982 so we do have a very good understanding of our katas. We even have videos of him doing the katas as well as plenty of his students and instructors still around.
I think you have a very strange idea of what kata is. Either that or as I said you just like stirring.

 

[drop bear]

How about you just answer my question instead of deflecting.

How about I did answer the question.