Questions regarding certification

ralphmcpherson

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I was just wondering a couple of things. Firstly what dan do you have to be to promote your own students in a kukki school? Im sure I heard someone say 4th dan but I wasnt sure. Also, people have commented here that my GM should give me a kukki cert becasue what I do is basically kukki tkd. If my GM sent away to korea and got me a kukki cert knowing full well that I dont know any of the taegeks, is this unethical? I mean surely the korean man who rubber stamps my application would assume that I would know the kukki forms, if he was aware that I dont know any taegeks would he still be happy to stamp it? Are there any guidelines on what I should know or is that just left to the GM's discretion? The system just seems pretty loose to me if that is the case, or is knowing the palgwes enough because they were the original kukki forms? Im just a little confused as it seems wrong that my GM could send away and get me a cert and no one would question that I dont actually know the material. Wouldnt the first pre-requisite for obtaining a 1st dan cert through the kukki be that the student knows the poomsae? Im not trying to be a smart ****, I am just a bit confused about how this all works. It wasnt until I mentioned to a kukki friend of mine last night that some of you have suggested I get my GM to get me a kukki cert and he laughed and said "you dont know the stuff, so how could he get you a cert?". Again, Im not trying to start an argument, I am genuinely confused on all this.
 

puunui

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I think you think too much about all this. All of your questions have been answered in prior posts by the way. And it's Kukkiwon or Kukki Taekwondo, not "kukki".
 

terryl965

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Yes if you want one and I do not know why you would not, it is a piece of paper that would be recognized everywhere that is also from the KKW.
 

andyjeffries

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I was just wondering a couple of things. Firstly what dan do you have to be to promote your own students in a kukki school? Im sure I heard someone say 4th dan but I wasnt sure.

This is correct, 4th Dan to promote people up to 3rd Dan.

If my GM sent away to korea and got me a kukki cert knowing full well that I dont know any of the taegeks, is this unethical?

Personally I would ensure you knew the poomsae before applying for you (if it were me) but I don't have any strong feelings regarding whether it's unethical. I'm leaning more toward Puunui's view of inclusiveness on this one.

I mean surely the korean man who rubber stamps my application would assume that I would know the kukki forms

They would, because your grandmaster signs the form that says you've been tested in accordance with Kukkiwon promotion regulations.

if he was aware that I dont know any taegeks would he still be happy to stamp it?

Possibly, I guess it depends on your Grandmaster's reputation or how they're feeling on that day :) But how would he be aware?

Wouldnt the first pre-requisite for obtaining a 1st dan cert through the kukki be that the student knows the poomsae?

I would say so, but I'm not a kukkiwon certified grandmaster ;-)

Im not trying to be a smart ****, I am just a bit confused about how this all works. It wasnt until I mentioned to a kukki friend of mine last night that some of you have suggested I get my GM to get me a kukki cert and he laughed and said "you dont know the stuff, so how could he get you a cert?". Again, Im not trying to start an argument, I am genuinely confused on all this.

As I said, I'd want you to learn them before sending off for a Kukkiwon certificate, but that's just my opinion.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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This is correct, 4th Dan to promote people up to 3rd Dan.



Personally I would ensure you knew the poomsae before applying for you (if it were me) but I don't have any strong feelings regarding whether it's unethical. I'm leaning more toward Puunui's view of inclusiveness on this one.



They would, because your grandmaster signs the form that says you've been tested in accordance with Kukkiwon promotion regulations.



Possibly, I guess it depends on your Grandmaster's reputation or how they're feeling on that day :) But how would he be aware?



I would say so, but I'm not a kukkiwon certified grandmaster ;-)



As I said, I'd want you to learn them before sending off for a Kukkiwon certificate, but that's just my opinion.
Thanks for that, I tend to agree. It does make sense to me that I know the poomsae before I would bother looking into it. I would feel kind of strange having a cert that says I know something that I dont. I know at our club if a new student comes in, they could be a very good tkdist but if they dont know our organisation's poomsae then there is no way under any circumstances that our GM would give them a dan certificate from our club until they knew the palgwes. That's why it seems wierd that I could join another org without knowing their poomsae.
 

puunui

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Thanks for that, I tend to agree. It does make sense to me that I know the poomsae before I would bother looking into it. I would feel kind of strange having a cert that says I know something that I dont. I know at our club if a new student comes in, they could be a very good tkdist but if they dont know our organisation's poomsae then there is no way under any circumstances that our GM would give them a dan certificate from our club until they knew the palgwes. That's why it seems wierd that I could join another org without knowing their poomsae.


Again, if you see yourself as doing something other than Kukki Taekwondo, then don't get Kukkiwon certification from your instructor. Enough already.
 

leadleg

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Thanks for that, I tend to agree. It does make sense to me that I know the poomsae before I would bother looking into it. I would feel kind of strange having a cert that says I know something that I dont. I know at our club if a new student comes in, they could be a very good tkdist but if they dont know our organisation's poomsae then there is no way under any circumstances that our GM would give them a dan certificate from our club until they knew the palgwes. That's why it seems wierd that I could join another org without knowing their poomsae.
If you promise to learn the Taegueks,I will trust you and get you your Kukkiwon for 1st dan but you will have to test for your 2nd.;)
 

terryl965

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If you promise to learn the Taegueks,I will trust you and get you your Kukkiwon for 1st dan but you will have to test for your 2nd.;)

OK maybe you or someone can answer this does the KKW only accept the Tae Gueks now? I thought the still accepted the palgwes as theother set.
 

leadleg

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OK maybe you or someone can answer this does the KKW only accept the Tae Gueks now? I thought the still accepted the palgwes as theother set.
I cannot tell you they do not accept palgwe's. I can say they do not have them in the textbook anymore. oh, I am only joking about Ralph and his KKW.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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If you promise to learn the Taegueks,I will trust you and get you your Kukkiwon for 1st dan but you will have to test for your 2nd.;)
Sounds good, time to start learning some taegeks. I may be relying on youtube though because I dont know anyone else who could teach them to me:)
 

leadleg

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Because you already know the Kukkiwon forms of old I am sure you could pick up the Taegueks rather easily off you tube,although you may not have quite the right movement.A whole lot of practicioners don't. That is all that seperates you,8 forms,thats why your GM said he could get you KKW,if you wanted, he KNOWS.
 
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ralphmcpherson

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OK maybe you or someone can answer this does the KKW only accept the Tae Gueks now? I thought the still accepted the palgwes as theother set.
If you get an answer to this question terry let me know. I know you would have a lot of people you associate with who may know whether they only accept taegeks. It was the main reason I started this thread but it never really got answered. I mean, if you had a school and taught the kukki curriculum but didnt teach taegeks and instead taught palgwes would the kukki still be happy to recognise your school as a kukki school? As I said in my original post, Im not trying to be a smart ****, I am just really curious as to weather they only accept the taegeks these days because my kukki friends I have asked have told me they only accept taegeks yet people here are telling me I should get a kukki cert. Im confused
 
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ralphmcpherson

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Because you already know the Kukkiwon forms of old I am sure you could pick up the Taegueks rather easily off you tube,although you may not have quite the right movement.A whole lot of practicioners don't. That is all that seperates you,8 forms,thats why your GM said he could get you KKW,if you wanted, he KNOWS.
The problem is that for me to learn 8 forms and get them to a good black belt standard on top of my normal training, running my business, my two children, coaching my sons soccer team etc etc it actually becomes rather a large thing separating me from kkw. I do appreciate where you are coming from though. I am a real perfectionist when it comes to forms (at least I try to be), so there may be a bit of work in learning a new set, but I do like a challenge:)
 

leadleg

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I do know KKW schools who teach the Palgwe's only till 1st dan, then teach taegeuks for 2nd dan and of course the yudanja poomse. They award 1st dan KKW certification based on the 8 palgwe's. What I do not know is if the KKW itself still recognises the palgwe's for certification and whether they care if these other masters teach the taegueks or palgwe's. The KKW does not test for guep ranks so do they care if you do guep poomse? It could be the yudanja are more important to the KKW. I know all the KKW seminars etc. teach only the Taegueks and yudanja poomse.
Twenty years ago we could perform taegueks or palgwe's at WTF tournaments, personally I would say what does it matter palgwe or taguek,the real difference would come from the bb forms,Koryo, keumgan,etc
 

leadleg

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The problem is that for me to learn 8 forms and get them to a good black belt standard on top of my normal training, running my business, my two children, coaching my sons soccer team etc etc it actually becomes rather a large thing separating me from kkw. I do appreciate where you are coming from though. I am a real perfectionist when it comes to forms (at least I try to be), so there may be a bit of work in learning a new set, but I do like a challenge:)
When you have perfected those 8 forms you should have perfected pretty much most of the pooms and movements in the taeguek series. That is why it should be fairly easy for you to learn the other 8 forms. Unless you have a learning disability, I did 32 forms for my 1st dan 5 kicho's, 5 kibons, 8 palgwe's, 8 taegueks,Koryo 1, koryo2 basai, jitul, chulki cho dan and 1 creative form with a minimum of 11 kicks.Also had 3 bo staff forms 3 dahn bahng forms.Were they perfected, no, are they now, no. Its been over twenty years and I am still understanding and perfecting my movement and learning new poomse,now for competition at my age we have to know all yudanja poomse. Thats why I wonder how you could worry about learning a new set of forms. oh yeah I work full time and own a dojang where I teach every day except Sunday,that day I clean the mats,over 3000 square feet. My children have children so I do not do after school activities,and my grandchildren see me at the dojang.
 

puunui

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OK maybe you or someone can answer this does the KKW only accept the Tae Gueks now? I thought the still accepted the palgwes as theother set.


they told us that the Kukkiwon Instructor Course ten years ago that the Palgwae poomsae are obsolete and that we are to only practice the Taeguek poomsae. So yes, the Taeguek poomsae are the only valid guep poomsae as far as the Kukkiwon is concerned.
 

puunui

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oh, I am only joking about Ralph and his KKW.


Even if you weren't joking, you wouldn't be able to promote Ralph to Kukkiwon dan rank, because he lives in a different country than you. The only way that you could promote him is if you can show paperwork (such as a visa) that proves he resided or was in the US for at least six months. I've done Kukkiwon dan promotions for non US citizens and it was a pain in the butt.
 

dancingalone

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Even if you weren't joking, you wouldn't be able to promote Ralph to Kukkiwon dan rank, because he lives in a different country than you. The only way that you could promote him is if you can show paperwork (such as a visa) that proves he resided or was in the US for at least six months. I've done Kukkiwon dan promotions for non US citizens and it was a pain in the butt.

So, all you have to do is become a kwan jang. Problem solved.
 
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