Questioning the efficacy of Kata

[drop bear]

'Proof' implies absolutes and there are no absolutes in nature.

There should be some sort of evidence it is based on. Tested for effect in some manner.

 

[Phobius]

You against them is kind of the definition of competition.

I think it is the definition of a conflict, a competition is defined as a contest for some prize or supremacy. Alternatively rivalry.

 

[RTKDCMB]

There should be some sort of evidence it is based on. Tested for effect in some manner.

So do you think that a non-competitive martial art does not base estimates of its effectiveness on any evidence?

 

[drop bear]

So do you think that a non-competitive martial art does not base estimates of its effectiveness on any evidence?

Evidence would get a bit weird. It would be all third hand and anecdotal.

 

[Phobius]

Evidence would get a bit weird. It would be all third hand and anecdotal.

I think you mean first hand. Since you are the one validating your own martial art, rather than looking at others competing and hoping they can improve the art you train.

Unless you focus on competition yourself in which case you risk become focused on the sport aspect and not on self defence.

EDIT: I agree however on one account, validation is the only proof you need but dont kid yourself. Having a partner not suited for the task would render validation useless.

 

[drop bear]

I think you mean first hand. Since you are the one validating your own martial art, rather than looking at others competing and hoping they can improve the art you train.

Unless you focus on competition yourself in which case you risk become focused on the sport aspect and not on self defence.

EDIT: I agree however on one account, validation is the only proof you need but dont kid yourself. Having a partner not suited for the task would render validation useless.

Well it wouldn't be sport based evidence. So you would have to find a guy who has been in enough fights to create a sample. And that is usually a third part. Mabye statistics,police reports or something.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Evidence would get a bit weird. It would be all third hand and anecdotal.

I forget, to you anything that is not caught on video is anecdotal evidence.

 

[drop bear]

I forget, to you anything that is not caught on video is anecdotal evidence.

Well kind of yeah. Some sort of evidence that it actually happened.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well kind of yeah. Some sort of evidence that it actually happened.

Like evidence of the following statement from you:

Been a few.
Bounced for 20ish years.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

There are tragic examples of where great competitive sports fighters have made grave errors of judgement and ended up dead when faced with what is essentially an SD situation.

That is pretty second guessy though. If he hadn't gone in as aggressively or if he wasn't aggressive enough or mindset herp derp guessed wrong and got him killed.

Alex Gong was a world class kickboxer. I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy. Could have kicked my *** in a fight pretty easily.

Unfortunately, he got himself shot to death chasing after and confronting a hit-and-run driver who had damaged his car. If he had just written down the plate number and given it to the police, he'd probably be alive today.

There should be some sort of evidence it is based on. Tested for effect in some manner.

Yeah, it would be nice to have some way to evaluate the efficacy of de-escalation training. You could probably do a decent study with LEOs or other professionals who have to deal with potentially violent situations that need to be de-escalated on a regular basis. In fact, if such studies haven't been done, they really should be.

Unfortunately, such studies aren't practical for normal civilians who shouldn't be getting into fights on a regular basis anyway. The best I can come up with is the "do no harm" principle, trying to make sure that my students aren't more likely to get into trouble due to their training. I try to do this by occasionally tossing in drills and scenarios where the "win condition" is something like getting to the exit rather than tapping out the opponent. It's remarkable how many people forget that objective under pressure and just become fixated on "beating" their training partner.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Would be such a large scale complex poll that would need to be undertaken to basically determine of the population (maybe with a martial artist sub-set) how many of those that trained in SD specific teachings and applied them, in comparison to people that did not, ended up being jumped/mugged/attacked. To my knowledge, that kind of survey has not been undertaken as yet. And I am not going to buy an argument that that means SD training is not effective - because it is not "proven".

I would actually like to see a poll like this. It will probably be skewed because there are more people who don't take martial arts than there are people who do take martial arts. Then they would have to break down the martial category to how many take martial arts for self-defense with the goal of learning how to fight vs those who just take it with no intent on learning how to use it for fighting. Maybe one day someone will jump down that rabbit hole.

 

[JowGaWolf]

There is no need to be walking the streets with a competitive mind set or feeling the need to be ready to drop into such a mind set.

I agree with this statement having lived and worked in the not so friendly areas of Baltimore, Maryland. This type of mindset would get a person into a lot of trouble on the streets. Our mindset often shows in our body language and the last thing you want people to think of when on the streets is that you are competing. Competitors get challengers so definitely don't have this mindset especially in rough areas.

Whenever I was in the streets I tried to always broadcast multiple messages in my body language.
1. I'm not there to compete and I'm minding my own business
2. I'm not afraid and carry myself as if I fit in the environment. In other words I don't look uneasy
3. I'm alert and aware of my surroundings.
4. I'm not an easy target

Most people who get mugged or attacked on the streets fail in one or more of these areas. When you see a street full of people yet one person out of crowd is singled out then one has to ask what did the person fail to do, that would have made the attack less likely to happen. Humans are like predator animals tracking a herd. The animal that the predator will attack will be the one that they think will be the easiest meal.

 

[JowGaWolf]

From my own experience, I have proven that it works. I have de-escalated situations that could very likely (I can actually say 99% (as you never know exactly what another person will do, but you can have a damn good idea when you have enough experience)) have gone to all out violence...and if I had gone about it with a "competitive" mind set, it would have gone violent, when there was no need for such.

I agree with this 100%. de-escalation method are used to prevent things from getting violent. When someone is de-escalating then what they really are saying is that they don't want to fight. Competitive mindsets in the streets is a challenge for men and women it comes off as who is the alpha male or alpha female. A competitive mindset says "come get some."

Having to stand up to some drug dealers in Baltimore, the last message that I want to give is one that says "come get some." I think of myself as a tough man, but I'm definitely not stupid when it comes to the streets.

 

[drop bear]

Alex Gong was a world class kickboxer. I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy. Could have kicked my *** in a fight pretty easily.

Unfortunately, he got himself shot to death chasing after and confronting a hit-and-run driver who had damaged his car. If he had just written down the plate number and given it to the police, he'd probably be alive today.

On the flip side we had those soldiers in France who stopped that terrorist. Had that gone wrong then we would have said they should have done something different.

 

[drop bear]

Unfortunately, such studies aren't practical for normal civilians who shouldn't be getting into fights on a regular basis anyway. The best I can come up with is the "do no harm" principle, trying to make sure that my students aren't more likely to get into trouble due to their training. I try to do this by occasionally tossing in drills and scenarios where the "win condition" is something like getting to the exit rather than tapping out the opponent. It's remarkable how many people forget that objective under pressure and just become fixated on "beating" their training partner.

Acknowledgment that it is guesswork is the key there. I know I couldn't teach any more than what works for me. But that is a bit different to teaching proven stuff. And I believe it is important to make the distinction.

Ironically that is one of our wrestling scenarios. To get the stand up and that is for purely competitive reasons.

 

[Tez3]

On the flip side we had those soldiers in France who stopped that terrorist. Had that gone wrong then we would have said they should have done something different.

One soldier, one airman and two civilians actually. One civilian the Frenchman was badly wounded and would have died if one of the Americans hadn't stopped the bleeding.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

On the flip side we had those soldiers in France who stopped that terrorist. Had that gone wrong then we would have said they should have done something different.

Probably not. They knew they were risking their lives in order to protect others and themselves. If they had died in the attempt, they still might have given someone else the chance to take down the gunman or to get away. If they hadn't made the attempt, they could still have been killed. Sometimes there are no really safe options.

 

[JowGaWolf]

On the flip side we had those soldiers in France who stopped that terrorist. Had that gone wrong then we would have said they should have done something different.

If I was in their situation I would have done the same thing. Not because I was trying to be a hero, but because I don't want to die without trying to save my own life. Those soldiers struck at the right opportunity, which was before he started firing the rifle. Waiting for him to spray the train with bullets would mean the opportunity would be lost and then you'll have to wait until he reloads to attack him, provided that you don't die during the first wave of flying bullets.

 

[Zero]

Alex Gong was a world class kickboxer. I met him once. Seemed like a nice guy. Could have kicked my *** in a fight pretty easily.

Unfortunately, he got himself shot to death chasing after and confronting a hit-and-run driver who had damaged his car. If he had just written down the plate number and given it to the police, he'd probably be alive today.

Sorry to hear you knew him and this is exactly the situation that comes to my mind when conversation goes onto such topics. I was aware of Alex but did not know him and when I read the report when it first happened it was a shock and a loss. It rams home that this "competitive", me against him or confrontational/aggressive mind set, rather than other approaches can end up badly. I was not there so am not directly commenting on what Alex did or did not do that day. I don't want to focus on the loss of Alex specifically but the tragedy highlights a lot of things.

Yeah, it would be nice to have some way to evaluate the efficacy of de-escalation training. You could probably do a decent study with LEOs or other professionals who have to deal with potentially violent situations that need to be de-escalated on a regular basis. In fact, if such studies haven't been done, they really should be.

Unfortunately, such studies aren't practical for normal civilians who shouldn't be getting into fights on a regular basis anyway. The best I can come up with is the "do no harm" principle, trying to make sure that my students aren't more likely to get into trouble due to their training. I try to do this by occasionally tossing in drills and scenarios where the "win condition" is something like getting to the exit rather than tapping out the opponent. It's remarkable how many people forget that objective under pressure and just become fixated on "beating" their training partner.

Noted.

 

[drop bear]

Like evidence of the following statement from you: