Purely an intellectual exercise... 108 movements

[Juany118]

OKay, I do not know much about non-YM based WC/VT forms but here is a question. Like YM Lineage do they all have 108 movements?

With the answer to that question I then ask the following. I go and hang out on occasion at a Tien Shan Pai school. I see the forms broken down into, shall we call them, more digestible bits. Same with the Japanese arts I am familiar with.

So for the "exercise". Why the long sequence instead of say two 54 count segments for each. The only thing I can come up with is that 108 is a sacred number in Buddhism.

 

[KPM]

OKay, I do not know much about non-YM based WC/VT forms but here is a question. Like YM Lineage do they all have 108 movements?

With the answer to that question I then ask the following. I go and hang out on occasion at a Tien Shan Pai school. I see the forms broken down into, shall we call them, more digestible bits. Same with the Japanese arts I am familiar with.

So for the "exercise". Why the long sequence instead of say two 54 count segments for each. The only thing I can come up with is that 108 is a sacred number in Buddhism.

The Ip Man forms can be broken down into segments. Each of the empty hand forms have an opening, 3 sections, and a closing. The dummy form is composed of multiple segments each divided by the "double Jut, double Tok Sau" motion, just as the segments in the empty hand forms are divided by bringing the fists back to the sides. But you are correct in that 108 was considered a "lucky" number. I've seen some systems go to great pains to show that their dummy form consisted of exactly 108 techniques. Personally, that just seems a little silly!

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OKay, I do not know much about non-YM based WC/VT forms but here is a question. Like YM Lineage do they all have 108 movements?

With the answer to that question I then ask the following. I go and hang out on occasion at a Tien Shan Pai school. I see the forms broken down into, shall we call them, more digestible bits. Same with the Japanese arts I am familiar with.

So for the "exercise". Why the long sequence instead of say two 54 count segments for each. The only thing I can come up with is that 108 is a sacred number in Buddhism.

I hadn't realized they normally weren't broken out into segments. That's a very different approach to the forms than what I'm familiar with. I'm looking forward to hearing others' reactions to that concept.

 

[Nobody Important]

The Ip Man forms can be broken down into segments. Each of the empty hand forms have an opening, 3 sections, and a closing. The dummy form is composed of multiple segments each divided by the "double Jut, double Tok Sau" motion, just as the segments in the empty hand forms are divided by bringing the fists back to the sides. But you are correct in that 108 was considered a "lucky" number. I've seen some systems go to great pains to show that their dummy form consisted of exactly 108 techniques. Personally, that just seems a little silly!

Yuen family sets are composed in the same manner, somewhat. We have a salute (head), 3 sections (body) and closing (tail). As far as 108 movements, I've never counted, I'm sure there are quite a bit more as our sets are much longer.

If I'm not mistaken 108 is a Buddhist reference to 108 sins, so doing 108 movements must be performing some form of atonement, guess that would explain why so many Chunners are zealots

 

[Juany118]

The Ip Man forms can be broken down into segments. Each of the empty hand forms have an opening, 3 sections, and a closing. The dummy form is composed of multiple segments each divided by the "double Jut, double Tok Sau" motion, just as the segments in the empty hand forms are divided by bringing the fists back to the sides. But you are correct in that 108 was considered a "lucky" number. I've seen some systems go to great pains to show that their dummy form consisted of exactly 108 techniques. Personally, that just seems a little silly!

What is and what is not taught using the segment's though is inconsistent though. Other arts tend to have it broken down into more digestible bits in a codified fashion. Not only that but certain movements in the forms start to feel, to an extent, redundant simply to meet this 108 goal.

@Nobody Important the 108 is actually all over the place in Buddhism. The first thing that came to mind was this...


"Monks, I will teach you a one-hundred-and-eight exposition that is a Dhamma exposition. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak... And which one-hundred-and-eight exposition is a Dhamma exposition? There is the exposition whereby I have spoken of two feelings, the exposition whereby I have spoken of three feelings... five... six... eighteen... thirty-six... one hundred and eight feelings...."

Obviously it goes much longer but 108 is sacred in a number ways.

 

[Juany118]

I hadn't realized they normally weren't broken out into segments. That's a very different approach to the forms than what I'm familiar with. I'm looking forward to hearing others' reactions to that concept.

Yeah. While obviously different instructors may break it down differently "typical" YM WC/VT has 3 empty hand forms/katas with 108 movements each, Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil and Bil Jee. Then it has the mook yan jong form (108, some have 116), the butterfly sword form and lastly the pole form. I said typical because TWC (what I study) adds an empty hand form between SLT and CK that is called "advanced" SLT. It's called that, for lack of a better term, because it adds some elements to the hand and arm techniques and also some basic footwork.

Note "typical" wasn't meant as a disparaging term, it was simply to indicate that the rest of YM WC/VT, thus more typical, only has 3 empty hand forms.

If I wasn't clear previously btw my ? Is why have a single SLT, CO and BJ when you could break them down into far more subsets OR pair each form down a little bit by removing the redundancy.

Here is my first "guess". The forms are limited in number because, in theory, the art is supposed to be quick to learn. As an example some Lineages of FWC have as many as 17 forms in total as opposed to 6 in WC. With that I think Ym was focused on maintaining that number 108 when he was rediscovering the art of teaching WC. It can of course be argued that the movements that feel redundant by the end of a form are repeated because they are so important but for that to constantly end with 108 movements seems to go beyond chance.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yeah. While obviously different instructors may break it down differently "typical" YM WC/VT has 3 empty hand forms/katas with 108 movements each, Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kil and Bil Jee. Then it has the mook yan jong form (108, some have 116), the butterfly sword form and lastly the pole form. I said typical because TWC (what I study) adds an empty hand form between SLT and CK that is called "advanced" SLT. It's called that, for lack of a better term, because it adds some elements to the hand and arm techniques and also some basic footwork.

Note "typical" wasn't meant as a disparaging term, it was simply to indicate that the rest of YM WC/VT, thus more typical, only has 3 empty hand forms.

If I wasn't clear previously btw my ? Is why have a single SLT, CO and BJ when you could break them down into far more subsets OR pair each form down a little bit by removing the redundancy.

Here is my first "guess". The forms are limited in number because, in theory, the art is supposed to be quick to learn. As an example some Lineages of FWC have as many as 17 forms in total as opposed to 6 in WC. With that I think Ym was focused on maintaining that number 108 when he was rediscovering the art of teaching WC. It can of course be argued that the movements that feel redundant by the end of a form are repeated because they are so important but for that to constantly end with 108 movements seems to go beyond chance.

One thing I find interesting, is that systems with a lot of forms generally have around three to four they feel to be the core of the art, while the rest are auxiliary. The older an art the more opportunities for different masters to create specialty sets or import and convert previously learned material. In my experience, most martial arts are in and of themselves compact but systems over time expand around alternate interpretations of specific ideas. This can create confusion concerning the original intentions of the style, because there can be such a specific focus on specialty or alternative practices.

 

[KPM]

One thing I find interesting, is that systems with a lot of forms generally have around three to four they feel to be the core of the art, while the rest are auxiliary. The older an art the more opportunities for different masters to create specialty sets or import and convert previously learned material. In my experience, most martial arts are in and of themselves compact but systems over time expand around alternate interpretations of specific ideas. This can create confusion concerning the original intentions of the style, because there can be such a specific focus on specialty or alternative practices.

This most certainly happened in Weng Chun and in recent memory! It is said that Fung Siu Ching originally taught only the "Weng Chun Kuen" empty hand form, the dummy form, and the pole form. The guys in the Tang family drew upon other experience and came up with the Sheung Kung form, which was said to be adding footwork and mobility to the Weng Chun Kuen form. Later on Fung Siu Ching himself added the Jong Kuen form with a similar idea....to add more mobility and footwork to the dummy form. Then fast forward to 1950's Hong Kong and Chu Chong Man is teaching Weng Chun and adding in forms from his background in Hung Kuen/Fa Kuen. Fast forward to the 80's and Andreas Hoffman is combining all kinds of things and calling it "Siu Lum Weng Chun."

 

[Vajramusti]

Yeah.

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I don't do TWC-its far from my cup of tea.
Each of the three forms have key concepts.With time, proper learning and practice they can be practiced as a single form. Great systems of thought are often based on some key principles-from which many implications and applications can be derived.
3,6,9,12, 108 are simply ways to organize and remember information in China and India.
Quick to learn=no. Wing chun is not quick to learn.
Wing chun is currently IMO in very bad shape because of incompetent teaching and adaptations such as jeet kune do.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm curious, how has JKD created problems within WC? I can see how some might see it as problematic within itself (that's an almost inevitable view of large adaptations, whether right or wrong), but I'm not sure I understand how it has had a negative imact upon the source material. Or are you including JKD in the larger umbrella of WC in your comment?

 

[Juany118]

First sir let me clarify, when I say "quick to learn" I mean regarding arts that preceeded them. Some CMAs essentially require you to start learning in childhood and then sometime after entering adulthood you are considered "competent" in a real fight, not mastered but the equivalent of completing say US Army training and hitting your first unit. Would I be wrong in saying that Wing Chun allows you to be simply "competent" in a shorter time period (using that definition.). I only say this because YM himself I believe said upon completing CK a student should be competent in a fight.

As for 108, you may be surprised but I actually understand, and respect, that it predates Buddhism in its importance as it is also held sacred by the Vedas. I just thought for some that history lesson would be a bit far afield.

I also agree that WC is in iffy shape tbh, however perhaps we come at it from different angles. For me I, admittedly, look at TMAs from a "have you used it in anger" perspective when it comes to teachers. I study MA for many reasons but one of them is always so I can return to my wife at the end of my tour. Even if the forms of TMAs as we know them were forged in such an environment, unless they are continuously tempered in a similar environment, you lose something important, the teacher that can impart what you only learn from direct experience in regular "street level encounters". This, imo isn't an issue exclusive to Wing Chun however and is shared by many Traditional Martial Arts. Perhaps my purpose for studying the arts colors my vision.

I will be honest and say I study TWC not because it made more sense to me than others as an art, but because my teacher can show they used it in real life encounters that I need to deal with for another 7 years at least before I can retire.

That "proof of concept" is important to me. If I had found a teacher of another Lineage earlier I would likely be there. Maybe I am off here but I feel a student's choice of art should have as much to do about their teacher as the specific art itself.

PS sorry if the previous seems a bit of a ramble. Most have woken but I am preparing for bed after an overlong tour due to circumstances beyond my control.

 

[Juany118]

I'm curious, how has JKD created problems within WC? I can see how some might see it as problematic within itself (that's an almost inevitable view of large adaptations, whether right or wrong), but I'm not sure I understand how it has had a negative imact upon the source material. Or are you including JKD in the larger umbrella of WC in your comment?

I found that a curious comment as well.

 

[Danny T]

I'm curious, how has JKD created problems within WC? I can see how some might see it as problematic within itself (that's an almost inevitable view of large adaptations, whether right or wrong), but I'm not sure I understand how it has had a negative imact upon the source material. Or are you including JKD in the larger umbrella of WC in your comment?

I found that a curious comment as well.

In my opinion...
Many JKD participants don't understand WC and what little they have learned, if they have learned any, is not very good WC. Most JKD today has no WC. Jun Fan had quite a bit of good wc but not a complete understanding of it. Therefore many within the JunFan/JKD community pass on poor quality wc within their training.

 

[Juany118]

In my opinion...
Many JKD participants don't understand WC and what little they have learned, if they have learned any, is not very good WC. Most JKD today has no WC. Jun Fan had quite a bit of good wc but not a complete understanding of it. Therefore many within the JunFan/JKD community pass on poor quality wc within their training.

Oh I agree, I just don't see how that has an impact on those who study Wing Chun specifically, regardless of lineage. Wing Chun is Wing Chun, JKD is JKD, at least to my mind.

 

[Danny T]

Oh I agree, I just don't see how that has an impact on those who study Wing Chun specifically, regardless of lineage. Wing Chun is Wing Chun, JKD is JKD, at least to my mind.

You understand they are different; others not so much.

 

[Transk53]

Where I am, there is JKD school that teaches purely concepts. The only thing close Wing Chun is a bit of Chi Sau. The rest of the curriculem is FMA based more than anything.

 

[JP3]

So I see the O/P thread-title, and I admit my perplexity is poked, which I prefer to my curiousity to be aroused which seems pervy.

Then I read the initial post itself, asking about the meaning of the 108 number's.... traits? Is that fair? I understand there's some significant numerology inherent in Chinese history/mythology. At least, I think there is based on my own reading.

But, my weird head doesn't stop at the inquiry, it wonders if there's any correlation between the WC of YM and the 108 and Steve Perry's are of Sumito or "The 97 Steps" from his Matador series of books. (Very much strongly recommend them if you can find them, absolutely great reads.)

Has absolutely nothing at all to do with the original Qx about 108 movements. That phrasing, 108 movements, just reminded me instantly of Perry's 97 steps...

 

[Juany118]

So I see the O/P thread-title, and I admit my perplexity is poked, which I prefer to my curiousity to be aroused which seems pervy.

Then I read the initial post itself, asking about the meaning of the 108 number's.... traits? Is that fair? I understand there's some significant numerology inherent in Chinese history/mythology. At least, I think there is based on my own reading.

But, my weird head doesn't stop at the inquiry, it wonders if there's any correlation between the WC of YM and the 108 and Steve Perry's are of Sumito or "The 97 Steps" from his Matador series of books. (Very much strongly recommend them if you can find them, absolutely great reads.)

Has absolutely nothing at all to do with the original Qx about 108 movements. That phrasing, 108 movements, just reminded me instantly of Perry's 97 steps...

So sir, do you relate to Emile Khadaji or Pen? I love those books...

 

[KPM]

In my opinion...
Many JKD participants don't understand WC and what little they have learned, if they have learned any, is not very good WC. Most JKD today has no WC. Jun Fan had quite a bit of good wc but not a complete understanding of it. Therefore many within the JunFan/JKD community pass on poor quality wc within their training.

But they are not teaching Wing Chun. They are teaching JKD. So how would that put Wing Chun in "very bad shape" as Joy claimed? That only makes sense if you consider JKD a form of Wing Chun and lump JKD in with the comment that "Wing Chun is in very bad shape."

Otherwise I agree with what you are saying. JKD is now a very wide field and not at all consistent as far as what is taught. Some still teach the Wing Chun SNT form, Chi Sau, and 1st half of the Wing Chun dummy. Some do almost exclusively kickboxing. Some look more like a version of Kali empty-hands. But again, how this would reflect badly on Wing Chun itself makes no sense to me!

 

[KPM]

So sir, do you relate to Emile Khadaji or Pen? I love those books...

Steve Perry is a great guy and has been a long-time student of Stevan Plinck's Pentjak Silat Serak. But he actually wrote about the "97 steps" before he had knew much about Silat. He had done Karate before Silat and has said when he came across Serak it was pretty much what he was visualizing in his head as the "97 steps"!