One of the problems woth tournaments!

[chinto01]

Hello all.

Thought I would pass this on as a friend who recently refereed at a tourney told me this story. This just illustrates why I have such a bad feeling for them.

During a point fight competitor A swept out the standing leg of competitor B which was not a legal technique at this tourney. Competitor B hit the ground requiring the EMT to come over and take a look to make sure all was o.k.
During this break the promoter of the tourney saw what had happend and pulled all of the referees aside to explain that competitor A should be disqualified for the technique. Want to take a guess who competitor B was a student of? On top of all that 2 of the 3 referees were students of the promoter also. Which way do you think they were going on this? Any way the disqualification (which was not agreed upon by the referees but only by the promoter) was done by giving out 2 penalty points which in the end made competitor a lose the match. The promoter also made the call in the center moving the head referee aside. This was shadiness at its best. The promoter in my opinion was upset that the competitor who got hurt was one of theirs and they were not going to have any of that.

The better person did not win this match. Politics and wearing the right gi did. Competitor A should have had a warning given to him and the match should have continued. Just an example of where tournaments are going and as long as you have students of promoters participating/ judging there will never be a fair shake for anyone at these events.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[stickarts]

Hello all.

Thought I would pass this on as a friend who recently refereed at a tourney told me this story. This just illustrates why I have such a bad feeling for them.

During a point fight competitor A swept out the standing leg of competitor B which was not a legal technique at this tourney. Competitor B hit the ground requiring the EMT to come over and take a look to make sure all was o.k.
During this break the promoter of the tourney saw what had happend and pulled all of the referees aside to explain that competitor A should be disqualified for the technique. Want to take a guess who competitor B was a student of? On top of all that 2 of the 3 referees were students of the promoter also. Which way do you think they were going on this? Any way the disqualification (which was not agreed upon by the referees but only by the promoter) was done by giving out 2 penalty points which in the end made competitor a lose the match. The promoter also made the call in the center moving the head referee aside. This was shadiness at its best. The promoter in my opinion was upset that the competitor who got hurt was one of theirs and they were not going to have any of that.

The better person did not win this match. Politics and wearing the right gi did. Competitor A should have had a warning given to him and the match should have continued. Just an example of where tournaments are going and as long as you have students of promoters participating/ judging there will never be a fair shake for anyone at these events.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

What did the rules state ahead of time about illegal techniques being thrown? Did they state that warning would be given or that person could be dq'ed?
Intent is also a factor. Was the sweep an honest mistake or intentional?
I know what you mean though. I have seen crazy stuff at tournaments.
There were days i couldn't get a point without just about dropping the guy and then there were days everything i threw was called a point.

 

[chinto01]

The rules state that an illegal technique is a warning. My friend said it did not look intentional but who knows.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[SFC JeffJ]

I went with my wife and some of her students about a year ago and she ended being asked to center judge one of the young kids divisions (like 6-8 year olds or something like that). One of the kids was the daughter of one of the promoters of the tourney. She wasn't doing well. So her father comes up at starts yelling at my wife about how awful she is, has she ever competed in a tournament, how could she possible be scorring those techniques and so on. Lots of people saw this. Not only her school, but many others started boycotting this tournament. Last one they had participation was down almost 2/3s. Wish reactions like this would happen more.

Jeff

 

[beau_safken]

Welcome to the world of McDojo Tournaments. That kind of crap happened all the time when I did point fighting. You just have to learn to play by their rules...or if you are gonna go out..go out with a bang

I remember one tourney that made it illegal to hit the head with your hands or legs. So what did I do? Shot in and got a clean solar plexus shot, came in from behind took his supporting leg and his head fell into my knee. It wasn't intentional but more or less instinct for a silat dude. I got DQ'ed for a hit to the head. Its not like the guy was really hurt from my knee. A lot of people just love to look for anything to give their own students a leg up. Remember, those that put on tournaments have a vested interest to make their own students perform well so they can spend more money with that instructor. Actually come to think of it. There was a tourney that made it illegal to use turning kicks which pretty much eliminated my TKD training. But then again Silat doesn't give a damn about kicks generally anyway . Play by their rules or find a nice work around...Either way its fun but I prefer the middle.

 

[bushidomartialarts]

i actually got started in this forum because i wanted to find out if my terrible tournament experience was normal, or an aberration.

open tourneys can be a mess. it's best to research tournaments beforehand, make sure they're run by principaled people.

 

[Grenadier]

I'm not going to get into the discussion of politics, since that would detract from the original discussion.

It all depends on the severity of the situation. If Competitor A's illegal action resulted in Competitor B not being able to finish the match, then the call was correct. Now, whether B was really down for the count or faking it, is another discussion for a later time.

Now, do I agree with the call? No. In my humble opinion, sweeps should be allowed in any division where the competitors are proficient enough. Of course, not at the white belt division, but you get the message. However, the promoter's rules stated that sweeps of that kind were not allowed, and that's that.

I had a similar experience, after having competed in Karate tournaments for years, and when I started competing in Tae Kwon Do. I was penalized a point for faking a hand technique to the opponent's face (not allowed), and then disqualified for doing it a second time. I don't like those rules, since many of the competitors were fighting with their hands down at their sides, but those were the rules of the tournament, and that's how the cards fall.

In most tournaments I've been to, whether as a competitor or as a referee / judge, I have seen that the chief referee of a ring, or the person who was in charge overall, has the authority to give an increased penalty for a situation. Thus, they don't have to give you a warning, and could, if desired, go directly to keikoku (1/2 pt in AAU, 1 pt in USA-NKF), even hansoku chui (1 pt in AAU, 2 pts in USA-NKF), or yes, even a straight hansoku (match is over, but not kicked out of the tournament). Yes, even a shikkaku, but that's a rather rare occurrence! Since the promoter, by default, can be the head referee in charge, it's not necessarily out of his jurisdiction.


Overall, I agree with your earlier statement, that it's not really fair to disqualify someone like that, but at the same time, the rules were the rules, even if I disagree with them.

 

[chinto01]

I'm not going to get into the discussion of politics, since that would detract from the original discussion.

Politics I believe is part of the discussion wouldn't you agree? Especially since the promoter took the time to step into this ring while their student was fighting. Let's ask ourselves the question of wether or not they would have stepped in and made the penalty so severe if it were antoher competitor.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[beau_safken]

Hey dude, If my student was there and going against a outsider and I could do something I would. Honestly, the better the student of the organizer does in the tourney = more money for the organizer. Retention goes up, and referals as well. Plus more fancy trophies of your own design to clutter up the entrance of your McDojo. Why not cheat when you make the rules..seems like the norm.

 

[MJS]

Hello all.

Thought I would pass this on as a friend who recently refereed at a tourney told me this story. This just illustrates why I have such a bad feeling for them.

During a point fight competitor A swept out the standing leg of competitor B which was not a legal technique at this tourney. Competitor B hit the ground requiring the EMT to come over and take a look to make sure all was o.k.
During this break the promoter of the tourney saw what had happend and pulled all of the referees aside to explain that competitor A should be disqualified for the technique. Want to take a guess who competitor B was a student of? On top of all that 2 of the 3 referees were students of the promoter also. Which way do you think they were going on this? Any way the disqualification (which was not agreed upon by the referees but only by the promoter) was done by giving out 2 penalty points which in the end made competitor a lose the match. The promoter also made the call in the center moving the head referee aside. This was shadiness at its best. The promoter in my opinion was upset that the competitor who got hurt was one of theirs and they were not going to have any of that.

The better person did not win this match. Politics and wearing the right gi did. Competitor A should have had a warning given to him and the match should have continued. Just an example of where tournaments are going and as long as you have students of promoters participating/ judging there will never be a fair shake for anyone at these events.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob

Unfortunately, this sort of thing to starting to become the norm. Politics is one of the reasons I started to avoid certain open events. IMHO, the head judge should have called all of the other judges aside and a mutual decision by them, not the host of the event, should have been decided upon. If a warning is what the rules state, then that is what should have been done. Of course, other things need to be taken into consideration, such as if this was intentional. If that was the case, possibly a point deduction or DQ given, if it was deemed that was the case.

Mike

 

[Robert Lee]

When rules changed over 25 years ago Point tournaments Have not been as good. Some rules still allow sweeps Mant TKD tournaments have done away with rules that do not faver the style. And as most tournaments call for a black belt meeting and try to get attending black belts to help judge and refure You here the rules and point calls at that meeting. NOW often a little slack is allowed on rules. As long as injury does not happen. BUT you have people that barely get a hit and act like they are almost dead to get a win. Some win for them. As a rule the best fighter Never wins. The best point getter wins. So its a game of tag. 25 years ago and more you could kick the grion sweep the legs strike the head at all belt levels grab and strike. ect. But Agin people sue more now days. And people also do not train as in the past. NOW several do train more real but they do not go to point tournaments either I guess you have to like that type of sparing to compete in playing tag.

 

[Kacey]

If the technique was illegal by the rules, then the penalty the rules called for should have been given - however, the promoter should not be the person making that call; the chief referee should. Once a tournament starts, the promoter should have nothing to do (unless it's something that pertains to the facility) exactly to avoid this type of problem.

My instructor has said for years that there are 2 losers in any match: the loser, and the center referee.

 

[Ceicei]

I remember going to watch a karate tournament last year (the Utah Games). There were teams all over the state as well as neighboring states. There was co-ed event of brown/blackbelt teenagers. One went up against another with a high spinning kick to head. The other totally dropped with a possible broken neck. She couldn't move, hurt too much. The EMT had to take the competitor to the hospital. The one who did the kick was instantly disqualified. (Headshots with excessive force are illegal). The head judge had to make the call, and the promoter backed the decision.

When rules are clearly stated with consequences for violations, I have no objection.

- Ceicei

 

[still learning]

Hello, There is no perfectly run tournments. Judging/referee has to be done by human beings, no two are perfectly alike, and will not see all the possible points you can earn. (having been a referee for several tournments for our schools).

Judgeing/refereeing and rules will always be a problem. None of us are professional judges or referee's. Even they make mistakes,(do you watch football, with replays?).

Enter the tournment's with an open mind, except the rulings, enjoy the matches, and the outcomes. You are not there to win just metals/trophies.....it is the challenges that will make you a better person and fighter, win or lose....these are lessons that can never be taken away..hopefully you will learn from this and be better for it.

I took fourth place once because there was only four people left in my division. So I told my MOM I came in fourth place...she was proud.

Now I am looking for three or less divisions....just playing here ....Aloha