Pros & Cons of this kind of training/testings?
- Thread starter FriedRice
- Start date
marques
Master Black Belt
Pros:
- No overconfidence and false sense of ability
- They get used to fight under fear and pain (maybe)
Cons:
- Too much for the students skill (judging from the video which can be ‘highlights’ only)
- There is no technical or tactical improvement after this
Conclusion:
- I don’t see the point of this. Some hard tests are needed for the true martial artists. But you first prepare your students, and then you give them a challenge up to their level, or just slightly above to keep them humble, alert and motivated to train more. But this is a shame, IMO.
- No overconfidence and false sense of ability
- They get used to fight under fear and pain (maybe)
Cons:
- Too much for the students skill (judging from the video which can be ‘highlights’ only)
- There is no technical or tactical improvement after this
Conclusion:
- I don’t see the point of this. Some hard tests are needed for the true martial artists. But you first prepare your students, and then you give them a challenge up to their level, or just slightly above to keep them humble, alert and motivated to train more. But this is a shame, IMO.
dvcochran
Grandmaster
Are you sure this is a testing and not just an amateur fight? I will say these guys have a lot of "want to" to be in the ring but no, not a lot of technique there. And very little is to be learned from a bunch of people standing outside the ring yelling at you while you are about to pass out.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
The one contestant is holding pads. Would suggest a test.
Yep, these guys wanna be in there. Rough & tough, full contact. Real martial arts in progress.
And so much of the full contact / MMA mindset is to physical dominate the opponent with muscular force. Not really at all what your org. represents. In the training program, I mean.
In my area, this is all too common. My dojo, spectators understand they are there to observe, not interrupt/ disrupt. One of the areas my org. gets it right.
There's a "trick" going on in this. The one guy is aiming at pads, and then suddenly the other guy attacks. First guy's "attacks" aren't going to disrupt that attack, so the guy with the pads gets a free shot.
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
2018 Tiger Muay Thai Team Tryouts Documentary: Episode 4
312,743 views
Tiger Muay Thai and MMA Training Camp, Phuket, Thailand
Published on Aug 26, 2018
SUBSCRIBE 183K
Episode 4 of the 2018 Tiger Muay Thai Tryouts documentary series! In this week's episode, the contenders are put through the gauntlet of the infamous Tryout "pads that hit back" session! With the 32 tryout participants all competing for a spot on the fully sponsored Tiger Muay Thai fight
'-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here's a better orchestrated version. For the guys & gals who want to get physically tough then go out there and pour it on.
Quite a contrast to the type of martial art training found at your dojang (is it?).
hoshin1600
Senior Master
from what i see im not a fan. all i see is hazing. which is not always a bad thing in my book but.... there was one section where the coach jabbed the student in the face with the end edge of the pad (this has a potential for injury) the drill is also set up where the student hits the pad and the coach hits the student. not a good training method and not ethical.
if you want to push and test a student then get in the ring with them and spar. put on gloves and outclass them and go ahead and pound on them but to create a no win scenario like what was in the clip kind of angers me. granted the coach had shin pads on and the student probably wasnt being hurt much. its the power dynamic that bothers me "i can hurt you , but you cant hurt me" it is emotionally frustrating and fosters a bulling vibe in the school.
now i should mention that i am used to what is shown in this clip
sanchin "testing" is par for the course in Uechi ryu. it has been known to be used as a sort of sadistic punishment when a higher up does not like a lower rank student. people i know have gone to Okinawa and were beaten so bad for being Gaijin (and maybe more than a little arrogant) they were urinating blood after sanchin testing.
that being said it is not the norm. the goal is to test only slightly harder then the student can handle. when done with the correct dynamic the student walks away with a positive feeling rather than feeling like he was subject to a "beat down"
EDIT:
i watched the video that Shotonoob posted and i get a different vibe with that one. so i had to go back and watch the first OP video again. the two videos give me different reactions. there is something different about them and im not sure why. i am thinking that the first video is American and trying to copy the Thai training but maybe over do the aggression and the skill level of many of the fighters in the first clip is sub par so it exagerates the power difference.
if you want to push and test a student then get in the ring with them and spar. put on gloves and outclass them and go ahead and pound on them but to create a no win scenario like what was in the clip kind of angers me. granted the coach had shin pads on and the student probably wasnt being hurt much. its the power dynamic that bothers me "i can hurt you , but you cant hurt me" it is emotionally frustrating and fosters a bulling vibe in the school.
now i should mention that i am used to what is shown in this clip
sanchin "testing" is par for the course in Uechi ryu. it has been known to be used as a sort of sadistic punishment when a higher up does not like a lower rank student. people i know have gone to Okinawa and were beaten so bad for being Gaijin (and maybe more than a little arrogant) they were urinating blood after sanchin testing.
that being said it is not the norm. the goal is to test only slightly harder then the student can handle. when done with the correct dynamic the student walks away with a positive feeling rather than feeling like he was subject to a "beat down"
EDIT:
i watched the video that Shotonoob posted and i get a different vibe with that one. so i had to go back and watch the first OP video again. the two videos give me different reactions. there is something different about them and im not sure why. i am thinking that the first video is American and trying to copy the Thai training but maybe over do the aggression and the skill level of many of the fighters in the first clip is sub par so it exagerates the power difference.
Last edited:
ShotoNoob
Master Black Belt
The Tiger Muay Thai has a high level of competency in their training program, comparatively speaking. So that quality shows in the students/ fighters. Tiger Muay Thai, TMU, has a very good reputation.
Me, I call it Tiger "Dumb" Thai. But of course it isn't literally dumb. It's not cerebral compared to TMA.
The Tiger version doesn't have that "gotcha" element. When they're working the pads, it looks like the person is expecting the exchange, rather than the pad-holder taking advantage of the fact the other person isn't hitting them, but the pads.
OP
OP
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
This is similar to how my gym used to test.
1. The music makes it seem more violent & intense. They're not landing that hard. The kicks & punches are pulled, otherwise there would be more than a few KO's and those dudes wouldn't get up that fast. The leg kicks should hurt though, but still pulled. The sweeps are pretty hard to full power though, but they don't do much damage, just takes the wind out.
2. This is the final part of the test, the last round that's 1 minute (my gym was 2 mins). If you get KO'ed then you fail and would need to retake the whole test at the next group testing schedule 6 months later. The Instructors are not really trying to KO to fail them, but it could happen. This is for moving up in ranks either belt color or "level".
3. Before this last round, we went through 3 hours of cardio + pad work. The worse were the "ladders" requiring at least 50 RH kicks/2-min rounds x 4-6 rounds. Cardio all over the place, ie. 50 burpees/2-min rounds x 4-5, etc. This is why these guys look terrible, like they're going to die and bad techniques. They're all dead tired. It was literally 2 minute rounds after rounds with 30-60 seconds rest in between. Maybe a full 3 minute rest every hour of the 3.
4. The Tiger Muay Thai was way worse in terms of the power of those strikes inflicted but those looked like Ammy fighters to Pro fighters, trying to make the cut of a scholarship....while my video was that of Average Joes, paying to train at an average MT gym. Funny, I was watching that whole Tiger doc/movie just hours ago.
5. These students testing, are not Noobs. I can tell by their abilities. This may be their 1st test as it's only 1 minute and no clinch sparring. Again, they're just dead tired.
1. The music makes it seem more violent & intense. They're not landing that hard. The kicks & punches are pulled, otherwise there would be more than a few KO's and those dudes wouldn't get up that fast. The leg kicks should hurt though, but still pulled. The sweeps are pretty hard to full power though, but they don't do much damage, just takes the wind out.
2. This is the final part of the test, the last round that's 1 minute (my gym was 2 mins). If you get KO'ed then you fail and would need to retake the whole test at the next group testing schedule 6 months later. The Instructors are not really trying to KO to fail them, but it could happen. This is for moving up in ranks either belt color or "level".
3. Before this last round, we went through 3 hours of cardio + pad work. The worse were the "ladders" requiring at least 50 RH kicks/2-min rounds x 4-6 rounds. Cardio all over the place, ie. 50 burpees/2-min rounds x 4-5, etc. This is why these guys look terrible, like they're going to die and bad techniques. They're all dead tired. It was literally 2 minute rounds after rounds with 30-60 seconds rest in between. Maybe a full 3 minute rest every hour of the 3.
4. The Tiger Muay Thai was way worse in terms of the power of those strikes inflicted but those looked like Ammy fighters to Pro fighters, trying to make the cut of a scholarship....while my video was that of Average Joes, paying to train at an average MT gym. Funny, I was watching that whole Tiger doc/movie just hours ago.
5. These students testing, are not Noobs. I can tell by their abilities. This may be their 1st test as it's only 1 minute and no clinch sparring. Again, they're just dead tired.
Finlay
Green Belt
I agree largely with what other have said. The fella with the pad is controlling everything so it is easy for him to set this up where you get lots of clear open shots.
So the can ask for a high roundhouse, know it is coming be unaffected by it and sweep his standing leg.
So, what is the point? Maybe working "spirit" or working under pressure but in my experince this is often used as an excuse by instuctors to bully students.
A drill i used to do is to have fresh fighters come in each round. So you spar one guy for a round, next round he changes out for soneone else and so on. I am sure many on here are familiar woth that drill.
In my opinion it achieves much more thaN the drill/test in the op
So the can ask for a high roundhouse, know it is coming be unaffected by it and sweep his standing leg.
So, what is the point? Maybe working "spirit" or working under pressure but in my experince this is often used as an excuse by instuctors to bully students.
A drill i used to do is to have fresh fighters come in each round. So you spar one guy for a round, next round he changes out for soneone else and so on. I am sure many on here are familiar woth that drill.
In my opinion it achieves much more thaN the drill/test in the op
OP
OP
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
I get what you're saying and against. It's not that bad, trust me. I train little kids, women, etc. like this. Of course I don't hit the kids hard....and the more advanced, the harder the return strikes after they hit the pads. This teaches them proper points of defense, etc. Training fighters, then the strikes with the pads gets harder depending on whom. This video was a test, so it needs to be pretty hard, but it's still only like 50-70% power.
This is just Muay Thai and that's what these Thai Pads are for.
What you're saying about sparring these Instructors instead..... to make it more fair & ethical and not bullying like.....holy ****, that's just, way, way worse and painful. When I tested like this the 1st time, it was no joke and certainly hurt a lot. But I can remember training for my 1st fight a few months after this test.....when we had our 1st hard sparring session with the coaches. That hurt a hell of a lot more than getting hit back by the pads. These coaches did not want to get hit at all, and as Noobs Deluxes, we were 5-15 years behind in experience compared to them. We could hardly land ****, and when we did land a good shot, we got lit up more for it, ****. They didn't go for head KO's, but did land a few hard shots to the head....but the kicks to the body & legs were near full power as we all dropped and often. I was scared out of my mind and in pain long afterward. Now it's just a good training session since I'm used to it, but that's like after many years of consistent training & fighting.
OP
OP
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
It's meant to simulate getting hit in a real fight...which you will most likely get hit in your 1st ever fight. These guys testing, prob. never been in a ring fight as this looks like their 1st test to move up in rank.
If the Instructors wanted to bully students, it would be very, very easy to do so, during sparring. All of those Instructors can KO every one of those students during sparring if they really wanted to bully them. But then they will all cancel their credit cards to terminate their membership = 0 students = rent not paid = out of business for that gym. Trust me, they aren't getting bullied. All of those head shots were pulled. Most of the other strikes were pulled too. Maybe a few kicks to the leg were hard, and it's meant to be that way. Notice, no KO's. Nobody wanted to fail a $$$$$$$$ paying student that's prob. on a 12-month contract at $120-150/mo.
OP
OP
FriedRice
Master Black Belt
That was so corny that it actually made me laugh.
But this is Muay Thai, not Karate choppin'. Although the Kyukushinshins are rough as hell....although won't punch to the head....but hey, lets break all the ribs and rupture kidneys, no prob.
Yokozuna514
2nd Black Belt
Uechi folks can be really tough and the Sanchin test is no joke. To the uneducated eye the test can look brutal but to those that know what the art is striving for, it is one of the best ‘hard’ body training systems out there. I’ve seen videos of some high level Shihan from Okinawa that can kick a hole through a 55 gallon steel drum. That’s is some serious conditioning.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
It is in part a confidence drill. Like those multiple oponant drills you see with the suits. Except this one is stepped up a notch.
The yelling is encouragement. Which I dont have an issue with.
drop bear
Sr. Grandmaster
Probably accidental.
Similar threads
