pros/cons of shita tuski vs tate tsuki vs kage tsuki to solar plexus in fighting?

[Fungus]

In periods I focus/obsess in different details and techniques, sometimes secretly only between me and the heavy bag, and sometimes by experimenting in sparring class.

I don't want to lanch a leading question, so i just ask it openly here, the questions is about body shots, mainly solar plexus, which version do you tend to prefer in contact fighthing and why and when? And do you do them in all in different combos? is there one version you rarely do?

I'm considering how they differ in power, speed, non-telegraphing etc.

 

[_Simon_]

In periods I focus/obsess in different details and techniques, sometimes secretly only between me and the heavy bag, and sometimes by experimenting in sparring class.

I don't want to lanch a leading question, so i just ask it openly here, the questions is about body shots, mainly solar plexus, which version do you tend to prefer in contact fighthing and why and when? And do you do them in all in different combos? is there one version you rarely do?

I'm considering how they differ in power, speed, non-telegraphing etc.

I find it just all depends on positioning, or where I want to be positioned. I rarely throw kage tsuki to solar plexus but often to the ribs, just hard to get to the right angle for solar plexus haha. Tate tsuki and shita tsuki I consider the same punch just as in different stages of the punch. Shita tsuki being closer in before the fist has rotated, tate tsuki a bit further out so fist has half rotated. (Unless you mean shita tsuki done in an uppercut style)

I'd say they're all fairly similar in terms of power etc (shita tsuki some people might have more trouble generating power due to the shorter distance, but can be worked on through developing short range power), kage tsuki I have noticed people tend to wind up and telegraph a bit prior to launching it so there's that.

 

[Fungus]

I agree the techniques overlap and can almost morph into each other and there are differen aspects.

Until recently I have had trouble getting stability and power into my shita tsuki, but during my last heavybag play, I manage to get the stabilisation. This was a subtle thing that rarely is realy made explicit when taught, and it seems there are many fine details you simply have to figure out.

Anyway, the advantage I see with shita tsuki for striking the lower ribs or solar plexus, is that the very slight upward angle, makes a better impace when your fist is inverted, as the seiken knucles can hit with pull power without risking that your fingers hit first. Solving the same "problem" with kage tsuki, I hit instnead slightly downbard with almost an uraken angle. This is great, but I think a slight upward angle is more painful.

But I have been lacking the technique util recently, my trick was to stabilize the arm against my body, so while punching the inverted fist, having high pressure tight to my own ribcage, (and the upper arm muscles pressed against my torso in tension) this is what allowed my to propell the **** tsuki with maxium power straight out, without compromising my arm or wrist stability; and WITHOUT generating the power like a hook punch, as there is minimal shoulder rotation.

That is also an option that i did before, ie duing like a kage tsuki to generate power but having the fists in tate. This is what I have don so far, it works even on black belt opponents, but I think the new method ot **** tsukit will work even with less telegraph.

I was curious if others have had a similar process.

The stabilization methos, is rarely in my experience mentiond, you are just visually shown howto do it, and are supposed to "mimic", this is a big difference from feeling in your own body, when and how you get that maximum power and stability into techniques? Is this teaching in purpose? It is en unspoken "lesson" that we are all supposed to fill in the missing details?

 

[Gyakuto]

Tate tsuki and shita tsuki I consider the same punch just as in different stages of the punch. Shita tsuki being closer in before the fist has rotated, tate tsuki a bit further out so fist has half rotated.

This is exactly how I was taught by the gentleman below who’s demonstrating it, Sugasawa Fumo, then 4th Dan now 7th Dan (I think).

Uraken…

Haito

 

[Fungus]

This is exactly how I was taught by the gentleman below who’s demonstrating it, Sugasawa Fumo, then 4th Dan now 7th Dan (I think).

Yes, I'm also taught that roughly tate, is something in between shita and seiken in terms of extension at impact, and it approximatley seems like different stages of the same movement.

But still, I personally feel that as the specific point of impact (where the "chinkuchi" happens) is at different structural statets, my mental focus and peak tension of exploding into impact feels very different between the strikes.

It's not like like I mentally charge for a seiken strike, and accidently the target is too close and i can expect good chinkuchi as a shita tsuki?

See the difference? If you look at the motion, I fully agree that they seems like different stages of a continuum, but it's not how it feels for me different muscles groups have priority when I try to maximize peak power on the three strikes. This is at least my own experience when playing with these on the heavy bag. I mentally consider them 3 different executions, otherwise I find it very difficult to get maximal power into the target, and the intended distance.

I have been accused before to overthink things, but I think there is no such thing.

 

[Badhabits]

All three punches you mentioned are contained within the basic reverse punch as done in kihon. Different stages of the same punch landing at different ranges. Which has to do with why kihon is done heel down. Heel down will provide stability at all those ranges, particularly close range for the half punch. Like a baseline starting point, and modify from there. I'd suggest scooting up to the heavy bag, closer than you would for a reverse punch, at range where your half punch connects. Then throw reverse punches. They'll stop short obviously because of half punch range but there shouldn't be much if any structural difference. That's one way I was taught anyhow. It's a good exercise for the makiwara as well. It might give you a better feel on the stability.

 

[Fungus]

All three punches you mentioned are contained within the basic reverse punch as done in kihon. Different stages of the same punch landing at different ranges.

Sure, I get your point, but I have played with the heavy bag, and I feel like this is a simpliciation. Because focusing to "peak" in power and stability at different states of extension and rotation, makes me want to train them as three different explosive motions.

 

[Badhabits]

I hear ya. I might be oversimplifying. It was just an exercise we were taught, definitely not the end all be all lol. Heck we might even perform the punches differently anyway.

 

[isshinryuronin]

But still, I personally feel that as the specific point of impact (where the "chinkuchi" happens) is at different structural statets, my mental focus and peak tension of exploding into impact feels very different between the strikes.

This is a good insight. I also see these to be 3 different punches, each with its own purpose depending on range and time. I only use the uppercut at close range with the power going upward to lower body or chin, though many use it at mid to longer range. I personally feel it loses power and structure in such cases. Mine is a max power punch with much hip and other lower body movement to compensate for the close range.

My style's kihon has the uppercut (mostly done at mid-range) but our basic punch is the vertical fist for simplicity in execution and for speed. It's employed to body and head targets at medium to longer range. Most of isshinryu's techniques are designed for close to mid-long combat.

The prevalent twisting punch is not in my style and one I don't normally use, though I see its use at long range when you have the luxury of time to take advantage of its range and power.

 

[_Simon_]

Anyway, the advantage I see with shita tsuki for striking the lower ribs or solar plexus, is that the very slight upward angle, makes a better impace when your fist is inverted, as the seiken knucles can hit with pull power without risking that your fingers hit first. Solving the same "problem" with kage tsuki, I hit instnead slightly downbard with almost an uraken angle. This is great, but I think a slight upward angle is more painful.

Ah that's an interesting thought, and makes sense in relation to knuckle positioning/orientation for sure.

this is what allowed my to propell the **** tsuki with maxium power straight out

I also love how spelt without the 'a' it does this

The stabilization methos, is rarely in my experience mentiond, you are just visually shown howto do it, and are supposed to "mimic", this is a big difference from feeling in your own body, when and how you get that maximum power and stability into techniques? Is this teaching in purpose? It is en unspoken "lesson" that we are all supposed to fill in the missing details?

Yeah definitely, and I feel that too, keeping the elbow/arm tight to the body through the punch and it's easier to connect your whole body into it. And in my experience the aim is to instil and propel that connection even while the arm and elbow leaves the body for a more full extension punch. So that we can apply body dynamics/mechanics and internal connections to everything we do. I like to feel that elbow hip connection, and the way the lats link them. And there's so much to explore too! Like a slight sinking on the body on the punch, even a spiralling into the ground sorta.

But yeah true some people don't mention it and simply expect the shape of the punch to be mimicked rather than working on feeling the connection.

Yes, I'm also taught that roughly tate, is something in between shita and seiken in terms of extension at impact, and it approximatley seems like different stages of the same movement.

But still, I personally feel that as the specific point of impact (where the "chinkuchi" happens) is at different structural statets, my mental focus and peak tension of exploding into impact feels very different between the strikes.

It's not like like I mentally charge for a seiken strike, and accidently the target is too close and i can expect good chinkuchi as a shita tsuki?

See the difference? If you look at the motion, I fully agree that they seems like different stages of a continuum, but it's not how it feels for me different muscles groups have priority when I try to maximize peak power on the three strikes. This is at least my own experience when playing with these on the heavy bag. I mentally consider them 3 different executions, otherwise I find it very difficult to get maximal power into the target, and the intended distance.

I have been accused before to overthink things, but I think there is no such thing.

I really like the way you think, and the line of enquiry that you follow . Keep following it I say! It's what enriches your practice and your own quality of investigation. Sure, we can overthink it, but definitely ask of yourself, why does this method feel more powerful as opposed to ____.... and then extrapolate those principles to other aspects of your practice.

I remember last year we tried working on short range power, someone holding a rebreakable board, and putting out fingertips touching it, then only from there without withdrawing, to palm heel through it. We eventually moved onto doing two boards. No one could figure it out, but when I tried it I simply tried to tap into those essential qualities which were the same as in full range punches: letting my breath accelerate and facilitate the movement, pressing through the ground with my back foot, hip rotation, a slight dropping/sinking of the body, relaxing deeply and letting go of unnecessary tension, allowing my weight to transfer via hip rotation into back of elbow, and striking through the target. I didn't consciously go through them, but I tried to contact the feeling. My first attempt they didn't break, so I reset and relaxed deeper, and second go I went straight through, was quite eyeopening.

So anyway! I would follow your line of enquiry, and find out why certain positions or punches feel weaker, and explore the quality of movement occurring, the internal connections you may be missing. I think when you go into it and when you practice long enough in martial arts, it becomes less about technique and less about specifics and shapes, but more about learning to use your body, learning quality movement that you can apply spontaneously in any position.

So do keep exploring. It's your practice. Often some people will say you're overthinking it as they don't want to go deeper than surface level. Other times, they say it as it may be true for sure haha, we can overthink things. But I like your analysis, it's a good thing to think about and reflect on our practice

 

[Fungus]

I only use the uppercut at close range with the power going upward to lower body or chin, though many use it at mid to longer range. I personally feel it loses power and structure in such cases.

I agree, it is close range for me too. I do my version with minimal rotational motion, for minimum telegraph. I realy mainly on explosive muscle power to propell it. If I am going to load my toros and hips, I would probably rather go with the hook. I think of it as as precision strike to say ribs or solar plexus. The kage tsuki is to me more like a power blow, that is just designed to strike through whatever is in the way. Worst case it's an elbow

My style's kihon has the uppercut (mostly done at mid-range) but our basic punch is the vertical fist for simplicity in execution and for speed. It's employed to body and head targets at medium to longer range. Most of isshinryu's techniques are designed for close to mid-long combat.

The prevalent twisting punch is not in my style and one I don't normally use, though I see its use at long range when you have the luxury of time to take advantage of its range and power.

My own preferences for various strikes, are, aside range, the angles of knuckle impact. I want the isolated two seiken knuckles to come first.

 

[Fungus]

Ah that's an interesting thought, and makes sense in relation to knuckle positioning/orientation for sure.

I also love how spelt without the 'a' it does this

Yeah definitely, and I feel that too, keeping the elbow/arm tight to the body through the punch and it's easier to connect your whole body into it. And in my experience the aim is to instil and propel that connection even while the arm and elbow leaves the body for a more full extension punch. So that we can apply body dynamics/mechanics and internal connections to everything we do. I like to feel that elbow hip connection, and the way the lats link them. And there's so much to explore too! Like a slight sinking on the body on the punch, even a spiralling into the ground sorta.

But yeah true some people don't mention it and simply expect the shape of the punch to be mimicked rather than working on feeling the connection.

I really like the way you think, and the line of enquiry that you follow . Keep following it I say! It's what enriches your practice and your own quality of investigation. Sure, we can overthink it, but definitely ask of yourself, why does this method feel more powerful as opposed to ____.... and then extrapolate those principles to other aspects of your practice.

I remember last year we tried working on short range power, someone holding a rebreakable board, and putting out fingertips touching it, then only from there without withdrawing, to palm heel through it. We eventually moved onto doing two boards. No one could figure it out, but when I tried it I simply tried to tap into those essential qualities which were the same as in full range punches: letting my breath accelerate and facilitate the movement, pressing through the ground with my back foot, hip rotation, a slight dropping/sinking of the body, relaxing deeply and letting go of unnecessary tension, allowing my weight to transfer via hip rotation into back of elbow, and striking through the target. I didn't consciously go through them, but I tried to contact the feeling. My first attempt they didn't break, so I reset and relaxed deeper, and second go I went straight through, was quite eyeopening.

I agree, the "focus" is important. I think what really is going on is perfecting the synchronization of many muscles to peak at the right time, but that is just too complex to describe muscle by muscle, but when you mentally focus, on the target, and and visualising exploding or breaking trhough, that is the way to accomplish this complexity. Without "focus", you get less power due to mis-synchronizations.

I noticed another thing, the vision can sometimes disturb my focus. I have been practising ushiro geir with my left leg( the bad one), and I find myself relying too much on visual markers, like when to turn, when to raise my leg etc, when to start rotate, So I tried to just stad in the right posistion from the bag, and just without looking, just internally imagingin the point of the bag wher my heelk should hit hard, and then just do it. That was almost easier than to obsess with the visual guidande. But i have to practice more to see if this was a coincidence or not. Ie. using the internal guidance in my body, more than external guidance when doing techniques.

So anyway! I would follow your line of enquiry, and find out why certain positions or punches feel weaker, and explore the quality of movement occurring, the internal connections you may be missing. I think when you go into it and when you practice long enough in martial arts, it becomes less about technique and less about specifics and shapes, but more about learning to use your body, learning quality movement that you can apply spontaneously in any position.

So do keep exploring. It's your practice. Often some people will say you're overthinking it as they don't want to go deeper than surface level. Other times, they say it as it may be true for sure haha, we can overthink things. But I like your analysis, it's a good thing to think about and reflect on our practice

Thanks! I always try to understand things deeper. Learning things without things makes me uncomfortable.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I just punch to the solar plexus. I guess you could call it a seiken tsuki or a gyaku tsuki. I did once practice haito strikes to the solar plexus in a dojo I was visiting at the time, and I accidentally completely dropped a fellow student. I didn't intend to do so, it seemed like a light strike, and I was only a green belt at the time. I can't imagine what a full power haito to the solar plexus would do. The opportunities to apply it seem limited, as the solar plexus is often covered from a side strike with the edge of the hand by the opponent's arms.

 

[Fungus]

I did once practice haito strikes to the solar plexus

Interesting. From what angle? Vertical haito from front? or side step and horizontal haito?

I sometimes throw horizontal haito to the side of the ribs - or upper arms, but it's just for fun. I'm not flooring anyone with a haito to the arm. But if I can hit the arm, I can as easily raise it a bit and hit vital areas, so i like to train it on friendly versions.
I like haito because its sneaky and hard to see coming. I train both haito and shuto on the heavy bag regularly on each session.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Interesting. From what angle? Vertical haito from front? or side step and horizontal haito?

I sometimes throw horizontal haito to the side of the ribs - or upper arms, but it's just for fun. I'm not flooring anyone with a haito to the arm. But if I can hit the arm, I can as easily raise it a bit and hit vital areas, so i like to train it on friendly versions.
I like haito because its sneaky and hard to see coming. I train both haito and shuto on the heavy bag regularly on each session.

Side step, drop to one knee, horizontal haito to the solar plexus.