Proper etiquette when you accidentally pick up your opponent

[skribs]

I apologize for the weird title, but I had a new situation today. We had a "new" student in class today; someone new to our school, but she's already a purple belt from previous training. She has the distinction of being the only adult shorter than me at my gym (I'm 5'5"), and I've probably got at least 80 pounds on her. We were rolling, I was in her guard. One of the techniques that we've learned involves standing up and trying to use your knees to pressure their hips to break open their guard. When I went to stand up, she kept her grips and her guard, so by standing up I would have picked her up.

This made me a little bit uncomfortable, and I avoided that technique.

For one, even though she's light for a human, I don't consider myself particularly strong for a man, and I don't know how much control I would have to let her down safely while we're still rolling. Then there's the obvious that she's at a new gym, and a white belt man is just picking her up and threatening to slam her, I didn't want to give her that impression. And if I'm at the point where I'm picking someone up, then I feel I'm using my "strength" more than technique.

But thinking about it, she's the higher belt, so if what she's doing is a bad idea she should know better than me. And, she's the one making the decision to hold on tight when I'm standing up, it's not like I'm forcing her to let me pick her up. I was just going to stand up, and she was just hanging on. Playing devil's prosecutor (because I'm arguing with my devil's advocate argument), it would be kind of a jerk move to threaten a slam just to trick them into opening their guard.

Anyway, I'm far enough down the rabbit hole, and now I need directions. I don't want to take a wrong turn at Albuquerque. As with some of my previous threads, I'm trying to be a good training partner. I'm not used to being the bigger, stronger opponent. Like I said, I'm short, and most of the guys in my gym have more upper body strength than I do. My best friend in the gym is a full foot taller than me! What would you do if your partner's reaction to your attempt at a technique made you uncomfortable? Go with it because they put themselves there? Or was I right to try something different?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Standing up in closed guard is a perfectly valid approach to breaking the guard. A purple belt knows that and if she chooses to hang on, that’s her decision. She is taking advantage of competition rules/normal gym etiquette which disallow slams. Presumably if she thought you were likely to slam her, she wouldn’t hang on.

(Personally I discourage my students from taking that approach because I don’t want them developing habits which will get them hurt in a real fight.)

Also, standing up in someone’s guard is more about technique than strength. I can stand up in the guard of guys who outweigh me and I’m not particularly athletic.

However, if you don’t feel solid enough in your base and balance to hold your partner up indefinitely or set them down safely, then don’t stand up with them. Learn the technique first.

 

[skribs]

Also, standing up in someone’s guard is more about technique than strength. I can stand up in the guard of guys who outweigh me and I’m not particularly athletic.

My personal feeling was that my intention was technique, but when she decided to hang on, if I continued to stand up knowing that I'm picking her up, that I've switched from technique to strength. If that makes sense.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This made me a little bit uncomfortable, and I avoided that technique.

Why? It wouldn't make me uncomfortable. What am I missing? Keep in mind that I don't train BJJ.

Then there's the obvious that she's at a new gym, and a white belt man is just picking her up and threatening to slam her, I didn't want to give her that impression. And if I'm at the point where I'm picking someone up, then I feel I'm using my "strength" more than technique.

In a real fight, if I have the chance to slam one of you BJJ guys on the concrete then I would lol. And if you BJJ guys get an opportunity to choke me out or snap my arm then you would lol.

But thinking about it, she's the higher belt, so if what she's doing is a bad idea she should know better than me.

There you go with your belt color and rank assumptions again. (In my cowboy voice) Ease up there fella.

As with some of my previous threads, I'm trying to be a good training partner. I'm not used to being the bigger, stronger opponent. Like I said, I'm short, and most of the guys in my gym have more upper body strength than I do. My best friend in the gym is a full foot taller than me! What would you do if your partner's reaction to your attempt at a technique made you uncomfortable? Go with it because they put themselves there? Or was I right to try something different?

Did you slam her? If not then there was no harm. Worse case scenario is that you slip and fall, the instructor sees what she did and he corrects her. Focus on your training..

However, if you don’t feel solid enough in your base and balance to hold your partner up indefinitely or set them down safely, then don’t stand up with them. Learn the technique first.

ha ha ha. I would stand up anyway. Not that I would approve of letting someone pick me up like, What he felt may be what she was going after. Like you said she may be taking advantage of competition rules. If he can't let her down easily then she's causing some good strain on him and maybe some improper lifting. That may be her game plan. In terms in the street, that's a good way to bounce one's head off the ground.

it would be kind of a jerk move to threaten a slam just to trick them into opening their guard.

If you know this then don't do it. Just be satisfied with the knowledge that it's something you can do if on the street fighting, but choose not to do in training. Think of it this way. Rules force us to search for other options to accomplish our goals. I wouldn't even correct her leave that up for the teacher. See what you can do to exploit it (other than slamming them) expand your understanding of the system for things that you can do if you pick someone up.

Worry less about the danger that it puts her and and use as a training opportunity to expand your own understanding.

My personal feeling was that my intention was technique, but when she decided to hang on, if I continued to stand up knowing that I'm picking her up, that I've switched from technique to strength. If that makes sense.

Well it takes strength to stand up like that. The only real technique you are going to use at this stage is to stand up in a way that doesn't damage your back. Then when you get good, you'll be able to stand up, counter and submit her without slamming her on the ground. Some kind of strength is always going to be used even when maintaining structure..

 

[drop bear]

Spin around until centrifugal force removes the problem.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Spin around until centrifugal force removes the problem.

I would love to see that lol

 

[skribs]

Why? It wouldn't make me uncomfortable. What am I missing? Keep in mind that I don't train BJJ.

Slamming is illegal in BJJ. Winning through feats of strength, especially against smaller, weaker opponents, is generally frowned upon.

In a real fight, if I have the chance to slam one of you BJJ guys on the concrete then I would lol. And if you BJJ guys get an opportunity to choke me out or snap my arm then you would lol.

In a real fight, I'd do a lot of things I wouldn't do in the gym.

There you go with your belt color and rank assumptions again. (In my cowboy voice) Ease up there fella.

I am making no assumptions about her experience level. As a purple belt, she has years of training, compared to my months of training.

Did you slam her? If not then there was no harm. Worse case scenario is that you slip and fall, the instructor sees what she did and he corrects her. Focus on your training..

Worst case scenario is I lose my balance, fall, drop her on her head, and then land nearly 200 pounds on top of her.

Spin around until centrifugal force removes the problem.

I can't tell if you're serious or joking, and this is one time I'd like to know.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Slamming is illegal in BJJ. Winning through feats of strength, especially against smaller, weaker opponents, is generally frowned upon.


In a real fight, I'd do a lot of things I wouldn't do in the gym.


I am making no assumptions about her experience level. As a purple belt, she has years of training, compared to my months of training.


Worst case scenario is I lose my balance, fall, drop her on her head, and then land nearly 200 pounds on top of her.


I can't tell if you're serious or joking, and this is one time I'd like to know.

I agree with all your points here, but the one that earned the reaction is your last statement. I would also like to know if dropbear's joking, or if he's got some secret bjj guard escape I don't know.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Worst case scenario is I lose my balance, fall, drop her on her head, and then land nearly 200 pounds on top of her.

Then don't stand up.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

My personal feeling was that my intention was technique, but when she decided to hang on, if I continued to stand up knowing that I'm picking her up, that I've switched from technique to strength. If that makes sense.

Standing up while she hangs on is still technique. But if your technique isn't good enough yet that you can't be confident of not accidentally slamming her, then don't do it.

 

[geezer]

I'm not a BJJ guy, so I don't know the training etiquette of rolling, but in other arts I've trained, things like this have also come up. Scenarios where a training partner does something that leaves them very vulnerable without their realizing it (like when your partner wouldn't release her guard when you began to stand up).

Normally in such situations, I call "time-out" and explain the issue with my partner and work it out ...without having to follow through with your technique and risk hurting your partner to prove a point. If you are sparring and rolling and don't want to stop, you can still talk it over afterwards. If it helps, you might call over a more senior student or instructor to clarify and confirm what you are saying.

It's called communication. IMO, it's very important in training.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Slamming is illegal in BJJ.

It makes no sense that jump guard and pull guard are legal, but slamming is illegal.

If you can smashy your opponentr's head on the ground, the fight is over.

 

[skribs]

It makes no sense that jump guard and pull guard are legal, but slamming is illegal.

If you can smashy your opponentr's head on the ground, the fight is over.

And potentially their life, through brain or neck injury, which is why it's a horrible idea to make that legal. You've been in martial arts long enough I hope you would have learned this. Are you just a straight-up psycho? Because that's what I'm getting out of this post.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

And potentially their life, through brain or neck injury, which is why it's a horrible idea to make that legal. You've been in martial arts long enough I hope you would have learned this. Are you just a straight-up psycho? Because that's what I'm getting out of this post.

You can break into my house (pull guard, or jump guard), but I can't shoot you (body slam). I just don't understand this kind of logic.

If you make the most effective counter for jump guard, or pull guard illegal, you should make the jump guard and pull guard illegal too.

You can kick me, but I can't catch your kicking leg. What kind of logic is that?

 

[Dirty Dog]

You can break into my house (pull guard, or jump guard),

Yes. You can.

but I can't shoot you (body slam).

Yes. I can. Kind of a ridiculous analogy.

I just don't understand this kind of logic.

In competitive sports, some techniques are illegal either because risk, either actual or perceived.. You really don't understand this?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Slamming someone from inside their guard is legal in MMA and and a very small percentage of Jiu-jitsu competitions, but most sport BJJ tournaments don’t allow it because of the potential for injury. (Just like they don’t allow striking.)

Since I teach BJJ from more of a martial arts perspective than a sport standpoint, I strongly encourage my students not to allow themselves to be picked up. Since I want my students to train without injury, I only let them practice slamming with the use of a crash pad.

 

[skribs]

You can break into my house (pull guard, or jump guard), but I can't shoot you (body slam). I just don't understand this kind of logic.

If you make the most effective counter for jump guard, or pull guard illegal, you should make the jump guard and pull guard illegal too.

You can kick me, but I can't catch your kicking leg. What kind of logic is that?

So should I just bring a gun to my class and shoot everyone who pulls guard on me? Something tells me if people did that, there would only be 3 BJJ practitioners in the world, and they would all be in prison.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In competitive sports, some techniques are illegal either because risk, either actual or perceived.. You really don't understand this?

Body slam is used aginst someone who tries to hang on your body as long as he can.

When you pick me up, if I release my grips (not hang on you), there will be no reason for you to slam me (in sport environment).

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Slamming someone from inside their guard is legal in MMA and and a very small percentage of Jiu-jitsu competitions, but most sport BJJ tournaments don’t allow it because of the potential for injury. (Just like they don’t allow striking.)

Since I teach BJJ from more of a martial arts perspective than a sport standpoint, I strongly encourage my students not to allow themselves to be picked up. Since I want my students to train without injury, I only let them practice slamming with the use of a crash pad.

I do get wang's point here. A jumping guard is a bad idea specifically because of the slam. If you take out the slam, you're making a technique artificially effective. If the goal of a martial sport is to safely allow people to train for fighting (as is often stated), then the jumping guard should also be banned, if it's counter is.

Incidentally, even if that's not the goal, I think it should still probably be banned if the concern is injury, as it increases the risk of harm on its own by opening you up to an intentional slam or accidental fall.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Body slam is used aginst someone who tries to hang on your body as long as he can.

That's one application. It is certainly not the only one.

When you pick me up, if I release my grips (not hang on you), there will be no reason for you to slam me (in sport environment).

If it's legal, there are lots of reason to body slam you.