Proof of a Higher Power

[Scout_379]

Now that I have your attention...

I have noticed through a couple of threads that we have some very well informed an intellectual religious persons using this site. Being in my teens, and raised in a religion free environment, I have become curious about my own spirituality.

And so I ask: If you beleive in a God, or like being, why? And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive?

 

[Firona]

As a teen who grew up in a religiously thick (yet not opressive) environment I can say it's not alway easy to believe in something. My father, being a native american spiritist, and my mother, heavy into the Maharishi movement; I have had my share of experience in many religious concepts. So, as for myself, I believe in an interconnectivity. God, I think, is just a word that describes this. Through working with the martial arts I have discovered there is a certain rhythm to everything, if you will. As if the world's heart beats all at once through us. On top of that I believe that on some level, be it spiritually or scientifically based, everything has to be the same. So, I suppose that is a really vague and useless explaination for what I believe in.

 

[heretic888]

I'll bite.

And so I ask: If you beleive in a God, or like being, why?

I don't believe in a "God" in the sense that you are probably talking about, but I most definately believe in a "Power" (can't really say its higher, since that would imply it isn't present in the lower stuff either). To me, all the major wisdom traditions and higher religions are really teaching the same thing. At their core, that is. And, it has very little to do with believing in a series of supposed historical events or believing in anyone's particular cultural interpretations of "dah troof".

And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive?

I did have a peak experience a few years back, but its very hard to describe and its more than likely that I interpreted it "out of its context", so to speak.

To me, the greatest proof comes from the cross-cultural universality of certain experiences and practices --- see, for example, Adlous Huxely's "The Perennial Philosophy" and Huston Smith's "The Forgotten Truth". Some of the modern cross-cultural studies regarding religious development are also interesting.

When different people from different cultures and different time periods start reporting similar experiences and insights, it tends to make you ponder. When there's this much cross-cultural smoke, it probably indicates a fire.

Laterz.

 

[Kane]

Now that I have your attention...

I have noticed through a couple of threads that we have some very well informed an intellectual religious persons using this site. Being in my teens, and raised in a religion free environment, I have become curious about my own spirituality.

And so I ask: If you beleive in a God, or like being, why? And what proof have you seen or learned of its/His existence? What makes you beleive?

I know exactly what you are talking about. I don’t think there is any true way to know. There is less scientific proof but A LOT of historical proof for Christianity. The Bible has been proven correct in most history and other things and it’s accurate. There is however no real way to see whether the miracle stuff happened such as turning water into wine or other stuff that might be considered magic. But with many other things proved historically in the Bible, why doubt the supernatural in the Bible.

But in the end it all comes down to faith. However if I had to choose between whether your faith is in vain or whether your faith is correct, I would have to choose your faith being correct. The path of God seems more reasonable. What I am trying to say is not to let go of your faith, because I’m a little more convinced that there is a God more than there is not a God.

Science once told us the Earth was round. Was that ever true? No it wasn’t. So there are many scientists that are full bullsh*t, so I wouldn’t believe everything they say. Many stuff scientists just come up with out theories.

 

[heretic888]

There is less scientific proof but A LOT of historical proof for Christianity. The Bible has been proven correct in most history and other things and it’s accurate.

This is blatantly untrue. Some "historical accounts" in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) are accurate, and some are not. Most of the more historically accurate accounts seem to be centered in certain parts of the Old Testament. Very little in the New Testament is "historical".

But with many other things proved historically in the Bible, why doubt the supernatural in the Bible.

To use a simple analogy, if a compulsive liar tells you the truth some of the time it doesn't mean he's telling you the truth now. It could also be that some of those "supernatural" accounts (such as the Virgin Birth) are based on rather archaic scientific notions (such as women being mere "incubators" or "holding tanks" during pregnancy, and not providing genetic material to the offspring).

Science once told us the Earth was round. Was that ever true? No it wasn’t. So there are many scientists that are full bullsh*t, so I wouldn’t believe everything they say. Many stuff scientists just come up with out theories.

This is also blatantly untrue. "Science" never told us the world was flat --- that was an assumption based on common understanding of the time, largely originating from religious teachings (which is why the heavens were thought to be "above", and hell was thought to be "below"). Very similar to the geocentric model that Galileo upset.

Real science bases its findings on empirical evidence. There was no evidence at the time for those claims --- just cultural assumptioons (similar, for example, of the notion of the tabula rasa or "blank slate" of the human infant's mind popular among the 1700's and 1800's).

Laterz.

 

[PeachMonkey]

This is blatantly untrue. Some "historical accounts" in the Bible (both Old and New Testament) are accurate, and some are not. Most of the more historically accurate accounts seem to be centered in certain parts of the Old Testament. Very little in the New Testament is "historical".

Moreover, even if the historical events in the Bible were covered with high degrees of accuracy, it does not logically follow that, therefore, all supernatural accounts, including the existence of a diety and the divinity of his son, are also true.

That's a bit like saying that because I have always given you accurate descriptions of traffic accidents that I witnessed, you should therefore believe me when I tell you that I am the Ruler of the Universe.

 

[TigerWoman]

I was brought up and took catechism and confirmed as a strict Lutheran. From there I slowly got disillusioned as a Christian, mostly from all the stuff that happened in my life. Then along comes my daughter who really connects and has a relationship with God. She becomes active in the church, sings and plays flute for the worship team. She also is a blackbelt ahead of me in TKD. Slowly over time she starts having difficulties with breathing especially during heavy workouts and sparring. I think its just low blood sugar. Then she has an incident at TKD where she has it bad. I schedule an dr. appointment. He doesn't find anything. Then she has an incident at school where she really is bad and can't find her breath. My husband takes her to the ER and after alot of tests and a couple of docs they say its asthma. So she goes on this regimen of steriods etc. can't remember what it was but slowly she gets worse and worse. She can't breathe well enough to play the flute or sing at church. The doc. ups her dosage.

I'm scared. I get a book about reversing asthma, non medically. I go into this frenzy of cleaning her room, dusting, cleaning everything, giving her all kinds of vitamins. She is hardly taking TKD, using her inhaler all the time. The book warns of long term steriod use, so I am even more scared for her. I start praying. Alot of people of the church and friends start praying. I don't even know how to pray, I just talk to God and plead to help her. We have a camping trip, in a RV, I'm scared for her being outdoors now. So she gets a allergy test - comes up negative. She says she doesn' t want to up her dosage any more - she read the book. After the trip, I ask her how she did on the inhaler.

She turns to me and calmly says that she stopped all medication that weekend. She said that God cured her.

She has never had any further medication since before that weekend. There has never been any further evidence that she has any breathing problem. It has been two years since that day. I thank God for giving us a miracle.
You can either believe this or not, but I believe it truly was a miracle and evidence of God's love and that he had a higher plan. My daughter is now a youth pastor. TW

 

[Feisty Mouse]

TigerWoman - that's amazing. I'm truly happy for you and your daughter. What a change it must be in her life!

 

[TigerWoman]

Feisty - it was a change but not for her. I started praying more and talking to God. She is unchanged. Her love for God is unchanged since she was young. She has always wanted to serve God and be a pastor. Since 6th grade, she was 11 yrs. old. The miracle was confirmation of his intention for her, I believe. TW

 

[Flatlander]

Fascinating. TW, thank you for sharing that.

 

[heretic888]

I certainly don't mean to upset or offend anyone here, and I am quite happy for your daughter's recovery and health ---- but the "power of prayer" is not necessarily "proof" of anything.

Several anecdotes, as well as scientific experiments, have been conducted to verify the healing power of prayer. Control samples and all. And, the general consensus is that prayer does have a genuine healing effect (even when the patient is unaware that he/she is being prayed for, thus ruling out the placebo effect).

Unfortunately for some, this "prayer" effect has been demonstrated by Buddhists, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, Muslims, Christians, and even atheists --- all using their own distinctive methods. The result was the same.

The evidence seems to indicate this is a human phenomena, not a divine one. Or, if it is a divine phenomena, then pehaps we should all convert to polytheism (including the "god of bleh" that atheists worship). :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

The prayer is not what it is all about. Do I expect God to grant my wishes through prayer. No, I don't necessarily. But I asked anyway. This is from a person who only prayed a few times in my life for near disasters. I had lost faith. I still don't believe God is there for every need I have.

But this is not about the asking--this is about the granting. I believe God healed my daughter. When she told me that, after the weekend was over, I had shivers–I KNEW. There was nothing else to explain it. No act of prayer healed my daughter, God did. I could never deny that. This was proof to me that God was there for my daughter and perhaps incidently for me too, to show me that he was indeed THERE. Our doctor only shook his head and says it happens, these miracles. But he also said there was no cure for her asthma and it was a severe case. I thank God that she no longer has it. I guess sometimes you have to be hit on the head with a rock before you BELIEVE. I was. TW

 

[Feisty Mouse]

Unfortunately for some, this "prayer" effect has been demonstrated by Buddhists, Hindus, Hare Krishnas, Muslims, Christians, and even atheists --- all using their own distinctive methods. The result was the same.

The evidence seems to indicate this is a human phenomena, not a divine one. Or, if it is a divine phenomena, then pehaps we should all convert to polytheism (including the "god of bleh" that atheists worship).

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, heretic. Just because prayer does not seem to work for only one group - the "chosen" ones or what have you - doesn't then mean that all religions - or that atheism - is "equally right", from the perspective of God (which is a mind-bogglingly bizarre perspective for any human to try to take). Why shouldn't a benevolent God choose to heal members of various faiths? Just because I am a member of one religion doesn't mean that there are not beneficial things in another religion - but it doesn't mean they are the same, either.

 

[heretic888]

I'm going to have to disagree with you there, heretic. Just because prayer does not seem to work for only one group - the "chosen" ones or what have you - doesn't then mean that all religions - or that atheism - is "equally right", from the perspective of God (which is a mind-bogglingly bizarre perspective for any human to try to take). Why shouldn't a benevolent God choose to heal members of various faiths? Just because I am a member of one religion doesn't mean that there are not beneficial things in another religion - but it doesn't mean they are the same, either.

I am sorry, Feisty Mouse, but this is an attempt to privilege one religion over the others.

There have been just as many, if not more, successful prayer accounts by members of other religions --- and they do not subjectively account them to a Judeo-Christian deity, but their own. If you were to ask a fundamentalist Hindu how Christian prayers can be so effective, he would likely give a similar response that you gave ---- but interject the word "Krishna" for "God". Even secular healers like those involved in Reiki have reported similar (sometimes more phenomenal) effects, and you won't hear them mention "God" once.

Perhaps the problem here is that people are trying to think of "God" in terms they can relate to, within a conventional space-time reference --- "He" has a gender, "He" thinks like we do, "He" has intentions like we do, "He" experiences time like we do, "He" suffers like we do, etc. It all sounds to me like an attempt to make this "God" into another word for "A really big version of Me". Anthropomorphosis, its called.

The other problem here is that people are trying to claim their religion is specially privileged, and has the conceptualization of this "God" right and the others do not. Despite the fact that it is realized that this "God" is completely beyond human conceptualization to begin ("the letter killeth"). A very bizarre paradox.

The above account also ignores the numerous times that "prayers" are not answered --- which far outnumber the times they are. In any religion.

You are free, of course, to believe whatever you wish --- but can't claim "prayer accounts" as anything meeting a criterion of "proof". Or, even sturdy logic, for that matter. As I mentioned in other thread, different experiences (even "spiritual" ones) are interpreted differently by people at different levels of development. That is why something like a "cross-level analysis" is so important.

Laterz.

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I am sorry, Feisty Mouse, but this is an attempt to privilege one religion over the others.

In a way yes, and in a way, no. I'm not saying "THIS one is the best!" I'm saying that to say we know what God or whatever you want to call your higher power (assuming we're still speaking monotheistically here) is "intending" in terms of a particular religion. I don't see that just because prayer works in many faiths, that that necessarily means they are all "the one". That doesn't mean I think I know what "the one" is, or even that there is a "one", but it also does not mean that they are all equal to whatever higher power you are talking about. I think it's an unprovable question.

I was simply trying to address the issue you raised of prayer being a human or divine phenomenon, and how we might interpret it. I was not making an argument that all prayers are answered.

 

[heretic888]

In a way yes, and in a way, no. I'm not saying "THIS one is the best!" I'm saying that to say we know what God or whatever you want to call your higher power (assuming we're still speaking monotheistically here) is "intending" in terms of a particular religion. I don't see that just because prayer works in many faiths, that that necessarily means they are all "the one". That doesn't mean I think I know what "the one" is, or even that there is a "one", but it also does not mean that they are all equal to whatever higher power you are talking about. I think it's an unprovable question.

Well, dunno about any of that....

but, the point I was trying to make about the prayer documentations is that there doesn't seem to be any particular preference made out between the individual's beliefs or the deity being prayed to. Thus, it does not meet the criteria of "proof" for God one way or another.

And, regarding your other querry, I don't believe there is actually any "one religion" here. Different religious paths appeal to different people, based on both their level of development, their upbringing, and their own individual dispositions.

Besides, the "goal" of all religion is transcendent of any particular path anyway. Kinda similar to martial arts. Again.

Laterz.

 

[TigerWoman]

Well, dunno about any of that....

but, the point I was trying to make about the prayer documentations is that there doesn't seem to be any particular preference made out between the individual's beliefs or the deity being prayed to. Thus, it does not meet the criteria of "proof" for God one way or another..

And the point I was making was that it wasn't about the asking (prayer) but about the giving (God) or who do you think actually healed my daughter--
the wishing/thoughts of a few people or a higher power that is beyond human comprehension? TW

 

[heretic888]

And the point I was making was that it wasn't about the asking (prayer) but about the giving (God) or who do you think actually healed my daughter--
the wishing/thoughts of a few people or a higher power that is beyond human comprehension?

You say that as if they are mutually exclusive.

There have been accounts of Buddhist prayers healing people. There have been accounts of secular healing methods, such as Reiki, healing people. Many of which are just as extraordinary as the situation with your daughter.

The point, again, is that this anecdote is not "proof" of anything. There is far too much room for projectionism and intepretation, no matter how personally important it may be (and I am happy for your daughter's continued health).

And, I am quite open to the possibility of mind-over-matter, anyway.

Good day. :asian:

 

[TigerWoman]

Why do you want to discuss it if you are so SURE. God has a different form to people all over the world, but he is still GOD. TW

 

[PeachMonkey]

Why do you want to discuss it if you are so SURE. God has a different form to people all over the world, but he is still GOD.

If that's what you want to believe, TigerWoman, knock yourself out.

How does one reconcile your statement with the commonly held belief that salvation is available only to those who accept the divinity of the son of the Christian skygod?

I'm *very* glad your daughter was healed, by the way, no matter what the source.