Problems of new students

[wingchun100]

No, what I'm saying is that in today's world, traditional martial arts schools and MMA schools seem to attract completely different types of people. People who go to MMA schools are looking for a challenge, and people who go to TMA schools are looking something less so. And it isn't always because TMA schools don't provide a physical challenge (although this is the case sometimes), its just perceived that way. If people have gone to a karate or TKD school with 6 year old black belts running around, they assume that this is just the way all karate and TKD schools are, therefore they perceive these styles to be "soft" styles and would not be something they are interested in (even though the karate school in the next town over could be a hardcore school). So instead, they look for MMA/MT/BJJ/boxing gyms because those are "known" to provide more intense training.

I don't agree with this at all. I think most people don't KNOW what a challenge it can be to actually get "good" at a martial art. Think about it: most of the people I meet ("the general public") aren't even aware that karate came from Japan and kung fu came from China. I remember watching a demonstration done by some guys who practiced Kali/Escrima. After the show I heard two guys talking in the bathroom; one asked the other, "Did you see those karate dudes? That was awesome!" Sadly, this is the level of knowledge expressed by most non-martial artists that I meet. Given this fact, I cannot believe they go to a TMA school because they know it will be less challenging.

 

[Mark Lynn]

I don't agree with this at all. I think most people don't KNOW what a challenge it can be to actually get "good" at a martial art. Think about it: most of the people I meet ("the general public") aren't even aware that karate came from Japan and kung fu came from China. I remember watching a demonstration done by some guys who practiced Kali/Escrima. After the show I heard two guys talking in the bathroom; one asked the other, "Did you see those karate dudes? That was awesome!" Sadly, this is the level of knowledge expressed by most non-martial artists that I meet. Given this fact, I cannot believe they go to a TMA school because they know it will be less challenging.

First off I believe this speaks more to the general public not knowing anything about the Filipino Martial Arts than the general public not knowing that karate came from Okinawa/Japan and kung fu came from China.

Second there is another side to this issue, and that is especially here in America (probably world wide) most of the martial arts have been blended so much now that it is hard to tell what styles came from where and what sets this style apart from this style and so on. What sets apart Wado from Shotokan? They both practice the same root kata so the average Joe is thinking they are the same, what sets this style of Kung Fu apart from that style etc. etc.?

As a martial artist studying that style, I'm sure we can all explain some of the differences, but to the average Joe on the street looking at two performers they won't know. Now schools that teach multistyles (like I do) further compound the problem by having kids in karate uniforms demonstrating escrima so of course the unlearned public is going to link that with karate or whatever.

But getting back to the blending of styles, with the emphasis going to more performance based martial arts say in tournaments; where you have creative forms, musical kata, plastic weapons, toothpick bo, colorful uniforms, fancy acrobatic or gymnastic type moves is it any wonder why the public thinks everything is either karate or kung fu. Except the MMA or BJJ schools where none of that takes place.

 

[wingchun100]

First off I believe this speaks more to the general public not knowing anything about the Filipino Martial Arts than the general public not knowing that karate came from Okinawa/Japan and kung fu came from China.

Second there is another side to this issue, and that is especially here in America (probably world wide) most of the martial arts have been blended so much now that it is hard to tell what styles came from where and what sets this style apart from this style and so on. What sets apart Wado from Shotokan? They both practice the same root kata so the average Joe is thinking they are the same, what sets this style of Kung Fu apart from that style etc. etc.?

As a martial artist studying that style, I'm sure we can all explain some of the differences, but to the average Joe on the street looking at two performers they won't know. Now schools that teach multistyles (like I do) further compound the problem by having kids in karate uniforms demonstrating escrima so of course the unlearned public is going to link that with karate or whatever.

But getting back to the blending of styles, with the emphasis going to more performance based martial arts say in tournaments; where you have creative forms, musical kata, plastic weapons, toothpick bo, colorful uniforms, fancy acrobatic or gymnastic type moves is it any wonder why the public thinks everything is either karate or kung fu. Except the MMA or BJJ schools where none of that takes place.

It has nothing to do with them not knowing Filipino styles. The general public can't tell the difference between ANY martial arts. I was doing one of my wing chun forms outside on break at work. Someone asked me, "When did you start doing karate?" At any rate my point is that the general public's knowledge of martial arts is not all that in depth.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I just want to know where Donald found students that could do ONE good push up, much less 10. I have 2 women that can knock out 10 good pushes, that's it.

 

[donnaTKD]

try a proper muay thai school and everyone does proper push ups with their feet balanced on a medicine ball and it's not just 10 that you do - you do them in sets of 10 reps and during the course of an hour you'll prolly do 10 sets

found tkd to be full of kids and hated it mainly cos of all the kids --- personally i don't want to be training with 6 year olds - i want to train with people my own age which is what i've got in my muay thai classes

 

[Mark Lynn]

No, what I'm saying is that in today's world, traditional martial arts schools and MMA schools seem to attract completely different types of people. People who go to MMA schools are looking for a challenge, and people who go to TMA schools are looking something less so.

I agree with your point but disagree with your conclusion. I don't think people chose between this style, school, etc. etc. because of they are to hard or to soft. It's because of several reasons.

1) Advertizing or what name is on their mind. I call this the power of TV and the UFC, a whole new industry was created (and some might argue a style of martial art) due to the UFC type fights on TV. I don't know how many times I hear from people "Well you know most fights go to the ground" so they immediately want to study BJJ, which they really mean MMA because that is what they have seen on TV.

2) Believe it or not some people hate the idea of wearing karate uniforms, or kung fu uniforms. So if they can wear sweats, a tee shirt, they feel more comfortable; like wise for women if they can wear workout attire that is flattering to their appearance they feel better.

3) They also want to see results, so hitting bags for two minute rounds they see improvement in power, endurance etc. etc. in kata training or stance (basics) training they don't see the same results in the same time.

4) Perhaps the non TMA arts are more practical in the eyes of the public. I have two students who studied Modern Arnis, they took their daughter to a local American Karate school and at that school they taught some stick work, they joined only to be told we can't teach you that till you are of this rank (when they had already been studying that as a primary art for a year or so). Go to a JKD school, possibly a MMA school, or an FMA etc. etc. and you can learn that material from day one. You don't see guys in karate uniforms in the Octogan, and that is what is really being promoted and in the publics eye.

And it isn't always because TMA schools don't provide a physical challenge (although this is the case sometimes), its just perceived that way. If people have gone to a karate or TKD school with 6 year old black belts running around, they assume that this is just the way all karate and TKD schools are, therefore they perceive these styles to be "soft" styles and would not be something they are interested in (even though the karate school in the next town over could be a hardcore school). So instead, they look for MMA/MT/BJJ/boxing gyms because those are "known" to provide more intense training.

Again I agree with you here but disagree with the concluding sentence. Yes, you don't see kids running around in the MMA schools wearing black belts, but I don't think it is because they look at the TMAs being soft, but rather the MMA schools as not being the place for kids. So in a sense the MMA schools are looked at as being more "adult" which is where young adults want to go.

Look at the rise of Krav Maga schools (and their off shoots) they have hard work outs, they teach self defense related material. However they also have more everyday friendly workout attire, have a huge marketing campaign (i.e. branding), they have posters ads showing fit people doing fit things kneeing people, defending against gun or knife assults etc. etc. Adults relate to that and want that vision, which is why their schools are growing.

Karate or the TMA is also viewed as more family friendly; parents take the kids, then siblings, and sometimes parents join as well. The local karate schools marketing campaigns reflect this, the referral programs, etc. etc. all promote a safer, friendlier, place to train. Also taking the martial arts (TMAs as well as Modern Martial Arts), is now seen as a activity not something to do for a life time.

That adults are not looking into the karate schools goes beyond just the more intense training, but I do agree that can be part of it.

 

[Mark Lynn]

It has nothing to do with them not knowing Filipino styles. The general public can't tell the difference between ANY martial arts. I was doing one of my wing chun forms outside on break at work. Someone asked me, "When did you start doing karate?" At any rate my point is that the general public's knowledge of martial arts is not all that in depth.

Ok so we are pretty much in agreement, because that was the point of my post.

 

[wingchun100]

I agree, sounds good for you, that's a years pay.
But for the student not to show up almost makes you wonder WHY. I know if I paid for a year... I'd show up as much as possible

Not good for me...good for Sifu LOL.

 

[MAist25]

try a proper muay thai school and everyone does proper push ups with their feet balanced on a medicine ball and it's not just 10 that you do - you do them in sets of 10 reps and during the course of an hour you'll prolly do 10 sets

found tkd to be full of kids and hated it mainly cos of all the kids --- personally i don't want to be training with 6 year olds - i want to train with people my own age which is what i've got in my muay thai classes

This is a perfect example of the point I was trying to make.

 

[donnaTKD]

i know that a lot of my friends have got kids so the last thing that they need when they go to training is to see more kids --- makes sense they go training to get away from the kids for an hour or so and do something "adult" for once that's what i find in my muay thai classes -- 2 hours of NO kids allowed and we all love it that way.

point being if kids were allowed into the classes i take then i'd prolly stop going to that gym.

 

[skribs]

Look at all the people that pay for gym memberships and never use them.

There was a standup comic who called this his "fat tax".

 

[WaterGal]

I'm quite prepared to try the call before the trial classes. It will be interesting to compare the take up rate.

As to contracts, no offence taken. It is a personal thing. I don't know how it works where you are but if you sign up for direct debit here you can't cancel the payment. Only the payee can do that. So even if places like electricity suppliers etc offer reduced rates, I don't take up their offer. Because I am philosophically opposed to direct debit, it would be hypocritical of me to force it on my students. Paying three months in advance pretty much gives the same result.
:asian:

We use a payment collection company that gives a choice of direct debit/credit or of paper bills that you mail in, so people don't have to do the direct debit. I do encourage the direct debit, though ("it's more convenient"), since the company takes a bigger cut from the paper billing.

 

[WaterGal]

Another way to look at it is in a sense like a exit interview. I don't do this, however, if you were really running a business system tight school, the follow up call could also be a way for you to find out what about your program didn't meet their needs, was it cost, schedules, they didn't like the class, your facility stinks etc. etc. If you keep stats and enough people give you similar reasons for not signing up or quiting the program then you would have an idea on if you need to do some adjustments or not.

That's a good idea. Unfortunately, a lot of people want to let you down nicely, and don't want to say "I don't want to take classes at your school", and give some other reason which may or may not be the truth, which makes it harder. We did have some issues with schedule that people were honest about, and made some changes with that.

My living does depend on my earnings from class, I work hard at it. However being at the Rec. Center I don't have to rely on contracts but then I don't have the same overhead as a commercial school nor do I have the same financial risk at stake either. Contracts aren't a bad thing per say but they can be abused.

Yeah, our overhead is almost $6,000/month, not including any income. If we couldn't count on regular payments, it would make it pretty tough to stay open.

 

[WaterGal]

Although I somewhat agree, I have to add that I also have seen a lot of the complete opposite. A lot of people quit martial arts because it isn't challenging enough for them, especially TMA. That is why you walk by an MMA gym that has been open for 3 months and they already have more students than a TMA school that has been open for years. I worked at a Muay Thai gym, and we also had a TKD program, which I taught. All of the TKD students were children, and all the adult students did Muay Thai. I was not the head instructor, so it was not up to me how we ran the TKD program, but basically, the adults did Muay Thai because it offered them a challenge that they didn't believe TKD would offer them. Eventually, the gym owner scrapped the adult TKD program altogether in order to add another MT class in the schedule.

I feel that a lot of TMA schools attract the lazy people. Not all, but the TMA schools who don't have any real physically challenging element in the training. All of the motivated students who want to work hard go to the Muay Thai, boxing, BJJ, and MMA schools, and the lazy people go to the local karate school where they don't really have to train as hard. Sorry if that offends some, but its just the ugly truth. And I'm a TMA guy, so I'm not just ripping on TMA guys. What I am saying is that we have gone soft, and therefore attract soft students. We have made training easier and fluffier so that people wont quit, but in the long run it has completely backfired on us in that now we are just attracting the lazies, and the people who want to train hard look elsewhere. And once again, I'm not saying this is all TMA schools, but a fair amount.

I don't think you can lump all "TMA" together like that, there's a huge range both between styles and between schools. And I don't think it's just about "challenging", it's also about having different goals. (And possibly the public perception that karate and TKD are kids activities.)

We pretty much scrapped our adult TKD program recently, too, since all the adults we had doing TKD were doing it with their kids. The solo adults were all doing HKD or Kumdo. Which are both still TMA, but different TMA. Our TKD program does do a lot of challenging exercise, but it's also very sport-oriented, and I think adults are usually looking for something more focused on self-defense. Or, on the other hand, they love the idea of learning to use a sword.

 

[MAist25]

I don't think you can lump all "TMA" together like that, there's a huge range both between styles and between schools. And I don't think it's just about "challenging", it's also about having different goals. (And possibly the public perception that karate and TKD are kids activities.)

We pretty much scrapped our adult TKD program recently, too, since all the adults we had doing TKD were doing it with their kids. The solo adults were all doing HKD or Kumdo. Which are both still TMA, but different TMA. Our TKD program does do a lot of challenging exercise, but it's also very sport-oriented, and I think adults are usually looking for something more focused on self-defense. Or, on the other hand, they love the idea of learning to use a sword.

Once again, I am simply making a generalization when I say TMA, and I of course understand that the term does not encompass all traditional martial arts schools. But your comment about people having different goals is spot on. But based on what I have seen, people who come to TMA schools don't seem to have the goal of coming to a class that will seriously challenge them. They want to learn, but they like to do it at their pace. They don't like having someone work them like a dog. At an MMA or Muay Thai school, this is what those people show up for. Maybe I just have a different perception because I'm a young Army guy who thinks like this. But from what I have seen, generally, is that MMA and Muay Thai schools are full of people who are looking to train hard and want to put in the work, and enjoy getting their asses kicked at class. People who are in TMA schools are the "regular" people who want something to do, where they can break a sweat but not be lying on the floor huffing and puffing due to how hard the training is.

I'll say it again, this is NOT every school and this is NOT every student, but it is a generalization that leads to the perception that karate is for kids, and MT is for adults. Is it the truth? No, not always, by any means. But it has turned into something that the uneducated public now believe.

 

[donnaTKD]

MMA and Muay Thai schools have a standard physical level that puts even military in the shade. this is what everyone goes for - it's an extreme workout no matter which school you go to some really push you to your limits and then some others just do enough to see sweat and that's it --- i can get really sweaty just shadow boxing let alone doing anything else.

when everyone leaves the gym we're all on our knees and that's what mma / MT is all about --- training for 9 minutes (3 rounds) of extreme hardcore exercise - it's full on in all ways so if you don't train to that level then you'll get found out pretty quickly and get dumped on your butt pretty darn quickly too.

the tkd class that i went to was full of kids and didn't have the physical intensity that i was hoping for ---- 2 reasons why i don't do tkd.

 

[MAist25]

MMA and Muay Thai schools have a standard physical level that puts even military in the shade. this is what everyone goes for - it's an extreme workout no matter which school you go to some really push you to your limits and then some others just do enough to see sweat and that's it --- i can get really sweaty just shadow boxing let alone doing anything else.

the tkd class that i went to was full of kids and didn't have the physical intensity that i was hoping for ---- 2 reasons why i don't do tkd.

Ehh I wouldn't say that.... I've trained at and was an instructor at one of the top Muay Thai gyms in New York, and it wasn't even close to the intensity of my military training. But it is an intense workout and something that makes you push yourself, which is exactly what motivated people want when looking into a martial arts school.

 

[skribs]

It all depends on the school you go to. Some instructors feel their job is simply to teach the martial arts, and others feel they need to throw conditioning in, too.

I'm sure there are instructors in all arts who fall on both sides of the fence.

 

[donnaTKD]

Muay Thai kickboxing has to be done at high intensity - the conditioning is there because it has to be. at the end of the day you're going into a cage to "essentially fight for your existence".

the 3 MT gyms that i've trained at are at the hardcore end of the scale - full on till you're more or less dead on your feet/knees and that's what everyone goes for.

there is no comparison between between an mma or mt gym and a tma dojo.

 

[WaterGal]

It has nothing to do with them not knowing Filipino styles. The general public can't tell the difference between ANY martial arts. I was doing one of my wing chun forms outside on break at work. Someone asked me, "When did you start doing karate?" At any rate my point is that the general public's knowledge of martial arts is not all that in depth.

Hah, that's true. We have decals on our windows showing what styles we teach (TKD, HKD, Kumdo) and our sign has the school's name in English and in Korean, and we still get people coming in asking about karate classes pretty regularly.