Principles vs. Techniques

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Appledog

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Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work”

This phrase 練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng). Basically means if you train Kung Fu without training internal, you end with nothing in old age.

Does not change the translation of Kung Fu to what you originally stated

You disagree with my translation of kung fu? Not sure how to process that one :) I can explain it if you want, but really, such a small thing.
 

Kung Fu Wang

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This phrase 練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng). Basically means if you train Kung Fu without training internal, you end with nothing in old age.
I'll replace the word "internal" with "ability development".

For example, if you train head lock without training the "pole hanging", your head lock will never work. When you get old, you will find out that all your head lock training is a big waste.

I won't call the poll hanging training is "internal".

my_pole_hang.png
 

Xue Sheng

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You disagree with my translation of kung fu? Not sure how to process that one :) I can explain it if you want, but really, such a small thing.
Easy, you say Kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.
Literal translation is effort or hard work..... rather simple to understand actually
 
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Appledog

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Easy, you say Kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.
Literal translation is effort or hard work..... rather simple to understand actually

You mistook "gong" for "gong fu". I said "gong" -- which is "the same character in gong fu" for reference ;-) But even so, it's a very srange thing to pick up on. Are you really saying that having kungfu doesn't mean you can express the principles physically? I am pretty sure it does mean that.

Regarding "gong"
The word "gong" in "gong fu" does not mean "gong fu", it means "gong". Gong is a word which is used in Chinese martial arts to refer to development. I.E. (for example) in the phrases mentioned, such as the name of an art (gong li quan) or the phrase "lian quan bu lian gong..."

Regarding "gong fu"
"gong fu" is a bigram in which has a different, although related meaning.

From Wikipedia:
"In Chinese, the term kung fu refers to any skill that is acquired through learning or practice. It is a compound word composed of the words 功 (gōng) meaning "work", "achievement", or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which is a particle or nominal suffix with diverse meanings."

(so) the term "kung fu" does not refer to martial arts nor does it necessarily mean "hard work" -- it can refer to any skill gained through practice. A great example would be here in Taiwan there is a local restauraunt called "Kung Fu Chicken". It's a BBQ chicken and pork place. Hong Kong style. The chicken is not working; it refers to the resulting state of the chicken after it has been cooked.

From MDBG:
The MDBG Chinese dictionary may also help: 功 gōng "meritorious deed or service / achievement / result / service / accomplishment / work (physics)"

As you can see, the word "gong" itself -- not the term "gong fu" -- can just as often refer to the result of the work or the accomplishment done as the work or deed itself.

So I think it is reasonable to asusme the meaning of the word "gong" that I was referring to was "achievement" or "merit" not necessarily the work done to achieve it. I can understand how someone who has only been exposed to the notion that "Kung Fu" means "Hard Work (over Time)" would take pause at this way of looking at it. But it is correct.

Now, I hope what I said is easier to understand: "Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as (gong in the word -ed) “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body."
 
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JowGaWolf

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Easy, you say Kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body.
Literal translation is effort or hard work..... rather simple to understand actually
I've read that definition multiple times and I'm really uneasy about the word art being used. Express +art makes it seem like dance.
 

mograph

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I've read that definition multiple times and I'm really uneasy about the word art being used. Express +art makes it seem like dance.
Yeah, "express" is more about getting out what was previously in. I'd say that one doesn't express the discipline, one expresses one's subjective understanding of the discipline. "Apply" or "execute" might be more appropriate in this case:

"This kung fu is the ability to apply the principles of the art [physically] with your body."

But I won't die on that hill.
 

Xue Sheng

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You mistook "gong" for "gong fu". I said "gong" -- which is "the same character in gong fu" for reference ;-) But even so, it's a very srange thing to pick up on. Are you really saying that having kungfu doesn't mean you can express the principles physically? I am pretty sure it does mean that.

Regarding "gong"
The word "gong" in "gong fu" does not mean "gong fu", it means "gong". Gong is a word which is used in Chinese martial arts to refer to development. I.E. (for example) in the phrases mentioned, such as the name of an art (gong li quan) or the phrase "lian quan bu lian gong..."

Regarding "gong fu"
"gong fu" is a bigram in which has a different, although related meaning.

From Wikipedia:
"In Chinese, the term kung fu refers to any skill that is acquired through learning or practice. It is a compound word composed of the words 功 (gōng) meaning "work", "achievement", or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which is a particle or nominal suffix with diverse meanings."

(so) the term "kung fu" does not refer to martial arts nor does it necessarily mean "hard work" -- it can refer to any skill gained through practice. A great example would be here in Taiwan there is a local restauraunt called "Kung Fu Chicken". It's a BBQ chicken and pork place. Hong Kong style. The chicken is not working; it refers to the resulting state of the chicken after it has been cooked.

From MDBG:
The MDBG Chinese dictionary may also help: 功 gōng "meritorious deed or service / achievement / result / service / accomplishment / work (physics)"

As you can see, the word "gong" itself -- not the term "gong fu" -- can just as often refer to the result of the work or the accomplishment done as the work or deed itself.

So I think it is reasonable to asusme the meaning of the word "gong" that I was referring to was "achievement" or "merit" not necessarily the work done to achieve it. I can understand how someone who has only been exposed to the notion that "Kung Fu" means "Hard Work (over Time)" would take pause at this way of looking at it. But it is correct.

Now, I hope what I said is easier to understand: "Tai Chi and Qigong, as well as all Chinese martial arts, begin training by copying and repeating techniques. Over time, these techniques become internalized and yield what is known as “gong” — the same word as (gong in the word -ed) “gong fu” (kung fu). This kung fu is the ability to express the principles of the art physically with your body."
You said Gong Fu... not just Gong.... and Gong by the way begs the question, are you a Cantonese speaker?

Chinese characters apart can have entirely different meanings when put together....but then you know that
 
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Oily Dragon

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Kung Fu, 功夫 Gōngfū - Means “effort” “hard Work”

This phrase 練拳不練功, 到老一場空 (Liàn quán bù liàngōng, dào lǎo yīchǎngkōng). Basically means if you train Kung Fu without training internal, you end with nothing in old age.

Does not change the translation of Kung Fu to what you originally stated
This is an old Kuen poem, I have the hanzi somewhere but you generally nailed it.

"If you practice without gong, in the end you will have nothing", and yeah it's not the same gong as in "gong/gung fu" (effort/work/achievement), it's the gong in "gong kiu" which is the "hard bridge" in Shaolin.. power.

I'll look it up in a few.
 

Oily Dragon

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Here we go. Definitely not 功, even though it's got a similar set of strokes.

1693495692485.png
 

Xue Sheng

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This is an old Kuen poem, I have the hanzi somewhere but you generally nailed it.

"If you practice without gong, in the end you will have nothing", and yeah it's not the same gong as in "gong/gung fu" (effort/work/achievement), it's the gong in "gong kiu" which is the "hard bridge" in Shaolin.. power.

I'll look it up in a few.
Di Guoyong also wrote that in his book, Di Guoyong on Xingyiquan Volume 1 Foundation. I just forgot the exact quote

 

Oily Dragon

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Here probably means "Gang" in mandarin i.e. gang-rou (hard-soft). Rou here is the same word for ju in judo-- rou dao is "ju do".
Yeah take a look at the middle image. Mandarin rhou= Cantonese "yao" the soft bridge. Hard and soft



Reminds me of a very cool video.

 

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