Practicing different applications

[skribs]

One of the things I struggle with is the broad spectrum of the curriculum at my school. The way I see it, there are four reasons people take martial arts: wellness, expression, competition, and survival. At our school, we cover a lot of ground, with expression coming in the form of our forms and our demonstration team, competition coming in the form of our sparring club and tournaments, and then survival as part of our self defense training.

The issue that comes up, and I've seen it trip up others as well, is that there is a difference in technique with each application. For example:

• A sparring roundhouse kick is done with a bit of a bounce, with the elbow pulled back as counterbalance for extra speed. A self defense roundhouse kick is usually a bit lower, to the gut or the leg, and there's a strong follow-through to generate additional power. A demonstration roundhouse is slower and more controlled. It is done more upright, and the kick is held at the point of extension for a brief period of time to display the beauty and control in the kick.
• A sparring fighting stance is upright and you bounce on the toes. A self defense stance is usually deeper rooted for extra power. A demonstration stance is even more exaggerated as a display of balance and flexibility.
• A sparring spinning hook kick is a quick whip-like motion which should involve very little leg extension until the moment of impact. A self defense spinning hook kick is probably a bad idea, but if you are going to use it, you want to get a little bit more swing and potentially use your heel instead of the ball of your foot, as the goal is to cause maximum damage as opposed to quickest point. A demonstration spinning hook kick is going to be more of a steady motion, which is slower, but prettier.

There's one student of mine who is an insanely fast learner. She is on my demonstration team but also in my sparring club. And every sparring club I'd remind her to do sparring kicks, not demo kicks. Every demo team practice I'd remind her to do demo kicks, not sparring kicks.

On the other hand, I find that isolating the training can sometimes be helpful. For example, sparring helps make my kicks faster, self defense training helps make my kicks stronger, and demonstration training works on my balance and my foundations of the technique.

What do you guys think? Do you find that training for multiple applications can split your focus? Or do you find that it helps build a well-rounded technique?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think it splits your focus, but not in an insurmountable way.

 

[skribs]

I think it splits your focus, but not in an insurmountable way.

So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?

 

[Dirty Dog]

So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?

Maybe. Maybe not. But if you practice 2 hours a week, it'll take you a lot more weeks to learn all of the applications.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

One of the things I struggle with is the broad spectrum of the curriculum at my school. The way I see it, there are four reasons people take martial arts: wellness, expression, competition, and survival. At our school, we cover a lot of ground, with expression coming in the form of our forms and our demonstration team, competition coming in the form of our sparring club and tournaments, and then survival as part of our self defense training.

The issue that comes up, and I've seen it trip up others as well, is that there is a difference in technique with each application. For example:

• A sparring roundhouse kick is done with a bit of a bounce, with the elbow pulled back as counterbalance for extra speed. A self defense roundhouse kick is usually a bit lower, to the gut or the leg, and there's a strong follow-through to generate additional power. A demonstration roundhouse is slower and more controlled. It is done more upright, and the kick is held at the point of extension for a brief period of time to display the beauty and control in the kick.
• A sparring fighting stance is upright and you bounce on the toes. A self defense stance is usually deeper rooted for extra power. A demonstration stance is even more exaggerated as a display of balance and flexibility.
• A sparring spinning hook kick is a quick whip-like motion which should involve very little leg extension until the moment of impact. A self defense spinning hook kick is probably a bad idea, but if you are going to use it, you want to get a little bit more swing and potentially use your heel instead of the ball of your foot, as the goal is to cause maximum damage as opposed to quickest point. A demonstration spinning hook kick is going to be more of a steady motion, which is slower, but prettier.

There's one student of mine who is an insanely fast learner. She is on my demonstration team but also in my sparring club. And every sparring club I'd remind her to do sparring kicks, not demo kicks. Every demo team practice I'd remind her to do demo kicks, not sparring kicks.

On the other hand, I find that isolating the training can sometimes be helpful. For example, sparring helps make my kicks faster, self defense training helps make my kicks stronger, and demonstration training works on my balance and my foundations of the technique.

What do you guys think? Do you find that training for multiple applications can split your focus? Or do you find that it helps build a well-rounded technique?

It depends how you train it, IMO. If those 3 roundhouse kicks are taught as different kicks, that's a problem for learning. If they are taught as different uses of the same kick, there's not much of an issue. I use my side kick differently when sparring, doing forms, and kicking a heavy bag. It's all the same kick, but I use it differently because there's a change in circumstances (don't want to hurt sparring opponent, no resistance in forms, bag doesn't care). I could teach those as different kicks, making more changes for each context, but that's an unnecessary learning load. Now, I do think if you have a single focus, you're likely to get better at that focus than if your focus is split (I don't care if the side kick in forms looks nice - I'm trying to keep it balanced and close to what I'd use in sparring). But if splitting your focus keeps you more interested in training, then it's probably a net benefit. It's all about the balance.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So if I practice 2 hours a week it's a problem, but if I practice 10 hours a week it's a boon?

If having multiple reasons for the kick leads you to more hours of practice, it's a boon.

 

[drop bear]

Every new position you are doing a new kick. So firing a quick popping style kick then following with a hard kick sets people up.

 

[hoshin1600]

I have mixed feelings on this. Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist. But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good. It prevents neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.

 

[pdg]

My take on it, feel free to disagree

Nothing is really truly automatic with the human body. Some things are preinstalled, but can be edited later.

Breathing and heartbeat - every breath and every beat rely on being told to happen, but you can override these 'automatic' functions. You can hold your breath and some people have a variable capacity to intentionally alter their cardiac rhythm.

Flinch response to pain - someone touches you with something hot and you flinch to pull away. I can override that (to a certain extent) because if when welding I get a bit of spatter fall on my arm I can essentially ignore it.

Everything else is a calculated response.

A fist is heading toward your face so your brain looks at the variables it knows, chooses a course of action and executes the programme.

The preinstalled variables are move or cover/block.

A lot of people will freeze initially while their brain is running simulations and get punched.

With training, the amount of simulation variables is reduced (because you know what's happening) so the response time is decreased. It's not that any response has become automatic, it's that your brain has been reprogrammed to be more efficient.

That's what training achieves - not automation but reduction of listed possibilities. It's quicker to choose between 2 options than between 20. It becomes so fast that it appears automatic (your conscious thought process is overridden by your restricted variable difference engine so you don't notice).

The time it appears most like being automatic is when you drill a specific scenario over and over - say a straight punch. You've set your programme to have a choice of 1 response. It's instant.

Then someone throws a hook - you get punched... Your brain either recognises a punch and initiates the response it knows (which may not work) or it doesn't recognise a hook as being a punch so it resets to default and starts running scenarios and you freeze.

The saying something like "fear not the man who has practiced 1000 attacks once, but the man who has practiced one attack 1000 times" falls down with this.

Your brain is quite clever, it won't take long to adjust to the new variable.

If someone relies on one thing to the exclusion of all else, they become easy to overcome as soon as their pattern is recognised.


Back to the OP topic, that's why I don't think they are 3 separate kicks.

If you learn the basic movement first, then you can develop that with speed for sparring/fighting.

Kata/pattern and/or demonstration are the secondary applications, and they give time to concentrate on the mechanics of the movement.

Using all of the applications in tandem helps all the areas - better understanding of how it really works so more realistic demonstration, and making it pretty for demo improves the form in 'fight mode'.

 

[Earl Weiss]

IMO one of the reasons techniques are structured as they are is they provide a "Center Point" along a spectrum (Or as in a recent article center of a sphere) which make it easier to morph the technique along the spectrum (or to any point inside the sphere radiating outward) as needed for sparring, self defense, breaking, etc. as opposed to practicing a technique which might be at one end of the spectrum (or far from the center f the sphere) and morphing it to a point much further away. (Hope that makes sense).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have mixed feelings on this. Being able to preform with different dynamics and variation, will in the long run make you a better martial artist. But for pure self defense sub division of mechanics is not good. It prevents neuro pathway growth and automation of the desired action. The action will never really be an automatic response.

Explain, please, because I don't think I agree, but I might be misunderstanding your point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My take on it, feel free to disagree

Nothing is really truly automatic with the human body. Some things are preinstalled, but can be edited later.

Breathing and heartbeat - every breath and every beat rely on being told to happen, but you can override these 'automatic' functions. You can hold your breath and some people have a variable capacity to intentionally alter their cardiac rhythm.

Flinch response to pain - someone touches you with something hot and you flinch to pull away. I can override that (to a certain extent) because if when welding I get a bit of spatter fall on my arm I can essentially ignore it.

Everything else is a calculated response.

A fist is heading toward your face so your brain looks at the variables it knows, chooses a course of action and executes the programme.

The preinstalled variables are move or cover/block.

A lot of people will freeze initially while their brain is running simulations and get punched.

With training, the amount of simulation variables is reduced (because you know what's happening) so the response time is decreased. It's not that any response has become automatic, it's that your brain has been reprogrammed to be more efficient.

That's what training achieves - not automation but reduction of listed possibilities. It's quicker to choose between 2 options than between 20. It becomes so fast that it appears automatic (your conscious thought process is overridden by your restricted variable difference engine so you don't notice).

The time it appears most like being automatic is when you drill a specific scenario over and over - say a straight punch. You've set your programme to have a choice of 1 response. It's instant.

Then someone throws a hook - you get punched... Your brain either recognises a punch and initiates the response it knows (which may not work) or it doesn't recognise a hook as being a punch so it resets to default and starts running scenarios and you freeze.

The saying something like "fear not the man who has practiced 1000 attacks once, but the man who has practiced one attack 1000 times" falls down with this.

Your brain is quite clever, it won't take long to adjust to the new variable.

If someone relies on one thing to the exclusion of all else, they become easy to overcome as soon as their pattern is recognised.


Back to the OP topic, that's why I don't think they are 3 separate kicks.

If you learn the basic movement first, then you can develop that with speed for sparring/fighting.

Kata/pattern and/or demonstration are the secondary applications, and they give time to concentrate on the mechanics of the movement.

Using all of the applications in tandem helps all the areas - better understanding of how it really works so more realistic demonstration, and making it pretty for demo improves the form in 'fight mode'.

While I agree that the issue is largely (using the psych terms) one of generalization (recognizing something new as fitting into an existing paradigm) and distinction (being able to differentiate between similar situations), I do think there are "variations" that aren't really variations, but something new. If someone practices a side kick for a forms competition, and the approach is to top to the step, raise halfway into chamber, then ultra-slowly complete the chamber, pivot 1/4 turn, slowly extend the kicking leg, quick partial retraction and second slow "kick", then retract and continue the form....that has little mechanically to do with an actual kick. Uber-slow "kicks" aren't firing the same muscles in the same way. They put much more emphasis on balance muscles (the real value of this practice, IMO) and the support muscles that hold the leg up. I'm not sure there's much value added to the actual kicking technique (except the stress to the balance muscles), and if this were practiced as much as an actual kick, I could see that causing some neural confusion that interferes with proper kicking technique. That's an extreme example, but I think it gets to the point of the OP.

 

[pdg]

While I agree that the issue is largely (using the psych terms) one of generalization (recognizing something new as fitting into an existing paradigm) and distinction (being able to differentiate between similar situations), I do think there are "variations" that aren't really variations, but something new. If someone practices a side kick for a forms competition, and the approach is to top to the step, raise halfway into chamber, then ultra-slowly complete the chamber, pivot 1/4 turn, slowly extend the kicking leg, quick partial retraction and second slow "kick", then retract and continue the form....that has little mechanically to do with an actual kick. Uber-slow "kicks" aren't firing the same muscles in the same way. They put much more emphasis on balance muscles (the real value of this practice, IMO) and the support muscles that hold the leg up. I'm not sure there's much value added to the actual kicking technique (except the stress to the balance muscles), and if this were practiced as much as an actual kick, I could see that causing some neural confusion that interferes with proper kicking technique. That's an extreme example, but I think it gets to the point of the OP.

Yes and no I think

The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.

If your goal then is to do it fast to the same end point (a to b) "nature will find a way" and that way is invariably the easiest.

I consider it much the same as how practicing to balance on one leg in a variety of positions helps improve stability on two legs.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes and no I think

The body is a master of compensation, performing a kick in ultra slomo uses the same muscles (but as you said, fires differently) and commits the end point.

If your goal then is to do it fast to the same end point (a to b) "nature will find a way" and that way is invariably the easiest.

I consider it much the same as how practicing to balance on one leg in a variety of positions helps improve stability on two legs.

But balancing on one leg actually uses the same muscles that leg will use (with slightly different emphasis) when standing on both legs. When slowly extending a leg in a side kick, there's a heavy emphasis on the hip muscles that raise the leg (and hold it in place), and very little emphasis on the muscles that move the leg outward and control the linear strike direction. There is definitely benefit to the exercise, but if done enough, it's probably a net interference with good technique and likely to ingrain patterns that create much more of a push than a kick.

 

[pdg]

But balancing on one leg actually uses the same muscles that leg will use (with slightly different emphasis) when standing on both legs. When slowly extending a leg in a side kick, there's a heavy emphasis on the hip muscles that raise the leg (and hold it in place), and very little emphasis on the muscles that move the leg outward and control the linear strike direction. There is definitely benefit to the exercise, but if done enough, it's probably a net interference with good technique and likely to ingrain patterns that create much more of a push than a kick.

But... Static balance fires and reacts differently to dynamic balance - it's the brain's ability to adapt responses to suit the situation that means being better at standing on one leg usually means you're better at (say) jumping from post to post.

As for any of this, I can only really speak of what I think I've found beneficial and how.

I can definitely see where you're coming from with the kick scenario - if you just lift your leg and almost let it drift into place (which I must say, I've seen a fair few do).

When I do a slow side kick I force the motion, using the opposing muscles to resist the movement and keep tension throughout - it's quite possible I'm a bit weird in that when I go full speed I just switch off the resistance.

While I don't think it's possible to develop a decent fast kick by exclusively practicing slowly and just expecting it to work, I do think your slow practice would have to outnumber your fast practice by a very significant margin to be detrimental.

 

[hoshin1600]

Why Practice Makes Perfect: How to Rewire Your Brain for Performance

the body action happens when electrical signals are sent down a chain of neurons through the axons. myelin around the axon increases the speed and strength of the signals. practice generates myelinated pathways. variation creates multiple pathways, some of which will be undesirable. more pathways means slower response times or incorrect responses due to undesirable pathways being stronger. this is why i said kicks with different mechanics would be undesirable.

Procedural Memory: Definition and Examples

"the brain retains procedural memory (how to to stuff) but it is not a fixed location or process. if the action is new it takes more activity from certain areas to "learn" the firing pattern. but as the action is set in stone the activated location of the brain moves when doing the action. it takes less and less frontal cortex to recall and preform the action. with practice it will become an unconscious action. similar to putting your foot on the brake of your car.

Everything else is a calculated response.

A fist is heading toward your face so your brain looks at the variables it knows, chooses a course of action and executes the programme.

this statement implies to me that all self defense actions are processed in the frontal cortex. i disagree.
95 percent of brain activity is beyond our conscious awareness

the bulk of "threat recognition and response" from the amygdala is sub conscious. add to that the functional degradation of frontal cortex under the chemical dump of fear. any response that requires the frontal cortex to process is going to be slow and often a bad emotional response.

im getting a little sidetracked sorry...

imagine this,
you are driving a newly designed electric car. the engine throttle is controlled by your right hand, there are three different brake foot pedals. they all function in different ways.. one slows the car and reduces speeds for normal around town travel, another pedal stops the car but in a slow gradual way mostly used for traffic signals and other that holds the car in one spot while the engine idles. imagine driving down the road and a child runs in front of your car. what is the likely hood of you pressing the correct foot pedal? what is the likely hood of you tensing your body, pressing a pedal while also squeezing the throttle?
now think back to all the times you had to stomp on your normal car brake. it was sub conscious, it was fast and it was reliable because there was only one choice that was embedded into the deep procedural memory that does not get processed by the frontal cortex. it was automatic. the car was also designed properly, having to take your foot off the throttle to apply the brake. good martial technique also needs to be designed to account for the human factor.
if the goal is self defense, practicing non functional martial arts is a waste of good neurons..

 

[hoshin1600]

something to think about ..
the actions you practice are effected by the environment in which you practiced the skill.
the environment shapes the way you learn the skills and that is encoded into your procedural memory.
if your practice is devoid of violent behaviors, when you are confronted with it, the violence will be outside of your procedural and representational memory. the complexity of responding to a violent attack will overwhelm your system and shut down. it is only when you are actually facing a violent encounter that you will realize your experience and understanding is unsatisfactory to deal with it.

 

[pdg]

I'm only quoting a portion for efficacy, but there's probably references to other parts...

this statement implies to me that all self defense actions are processed in the frontal cortex.

No, well I think no

I don't know enough about the different areas of the brain to to argue either way, unless I make an assumption based on the surrounding parts of your post.

Frontal cortex is the conscious decision making part, right? The bit where you actually know what you're thinking and weigh variables to reach a conclusion or response.

The act of training (imo) bypasses the use of that - the thing that people call automatic. The subconscious (as you said).

Only it's not automatic, there's still a decision making process going on, it's just that you're not aware.

Let's expand on your car analogy a little here.

I drive a car, normal (for me) right hand drive with a manual transmission.

Everything is "automatic" in my head, only it's not. Everything is a response to known variables.

I can get out of that car into another and drive it. Sometimes there are small differences - like the direction indicator stalk is the other side of the steering wheel - sometimes there are large differences - like an automatic transmission, or it being left hand drive. I never find myself searching for a non existent clutch pedal (and I've only ever once punched the door while reaching for the gearstick )

Another difference too - a friend of mine a while ago had a car that was modified with hand controls (paddles behind the steering wheel for throttle and brake) because of a congenital leg deformation - I drove that a few times.

If the actions of driving are truly automatic, I'd have a hard time switching randomly between cars.

Add in that I also ride a bicycle - I never try to brake with my foot...

Also, I ride a motorcycle - hand throttle, right hand front (main) brake, left hand clutch, right foot rear (secondary) brake, left foot gear shift.

Then there's the fact that a few of the bikes I've had were old British bikes, so the foot brake and gear shift were switched...

One bike I rode for a short time had the throttle on the left (an old Indian).

Another bike I owned had a foot clutch and left hand gearshift.

So, with these (and other) variables I have multiple pathways to respond to the hypothetical child running out into the street - they don't affect the speed of my responses though.

So your car with a hand throttle and 3 brake pedals? Bring it on, no worries


(I have more, but textwall)

 

[pdg]

something to think about ..
the actions you practice are effected by the environment in which you practiced the skill.
the environment shapes the way you learn the skills and that is encoded into your procedural memory.
if your practice is devoid of violent behaviors, when you are confronted with it, the violence will be outside of your procedural and representational memory. the complexity of responding to a violent attack will overwhelm your system and shut down. it is only when you are actually facing a violent encounter that you will realize your experience and understanding is unsatisfactory to deal with it.

Yes, because you haven't programmed the choices for that environment.

Because you haven't got the subconscious a/b/c reactions in place it hands the decision back over to the much slower conscious process to run simulations.

Which is essentially part of what I was getting at.

 

[hoshin1600]

Frontal cortex is the conscious decision making part, right? The bit where you actually know what you're thinking and weigh variables to reach a conclusion or response.

The act of training (imo) bypasses the use of that - the thing that people call automatic. The subconscious (as you said).

Only it's not automatic, there's still a decision making process going on, it's just that you're not aware.

after reading your entire post maybe i should start by saying in a fight there will be some aspects that are conscious and others that will be sub conscious. just like your switching between a kawasaki and an old triumph or Indian. some aspects like balance are sub conscious. you do not need to think about how to actually balance and ride the motorcycle. while shifting the gears will engage the frontal cortex because of the variation and complexity but you do not need the full attention of the cerebellum to coordinate the action the way a new rider would because of prior experience.

i have experienced my own automated reactions where i without conscious thought, caught a hand that was grabbing at me. to your description there might have been a sub conscious decision to catch and grab the hand rather than punch the person in the face. but what about the timing of the grab, the correct placement of my thumb on their hand, the subtle turn of my body and shifting of my weight in a sub conscious preparation for a wrist throw. these small details are all processed by the procedural memory. these details are not regulated by any decision making process either conscious or subconscious.
the OP mentioned different ways of kicking that as i read it seemed to me as different mechanics. one where the body counter balances and an other where the weight goes into the kick. do you get to decide which one you use? let go from macro to micro level.. do you get to decide your emotional reaction to an attack? do you decide on where the weight is distributed on your supporting foot? the angle of tilt in your hips?
to me anything that is not logically thought about and consciously decided is automatic. Neuroscientists are increasingly finding there are less decisions then we thought , in fact there may be no such thing as free will at all. but thats a different topic.