Posture & Power II

KPM

Senior Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2014
Messages
3,642
Reaction score
990
Before my other thread got locked because of the rather ridiculous debate about who was challenging who....I thought I had asked some legitmate questions that seemed to get dismissed and ignored. I am trying to understand what Hendrik is talking about. I have tried to support what he has been saying. But he seems unwilling or unable to explain things very well. I said this previously:

I don't see loading as meaning to hold or to tense up. That would be "bracing." You can load into your structure without bracing. Where does the flow of the force go when you receive pressure from someone? Does it not go through your body and into the ground? Will there not be some element of compression of the skeleton and soft tissues as it goes through your structure? Then when you "refect" or "bounce" that force back into them, will there not be some element of your structure expanding? I don't think they are that different. It seems more like a matter of degrees of the "spring" effect. One may be more subtle and refined than the other.

You used to write all the time about the "7 bows" and how they acted as springs in the body. What happened to that?


I will add to that last comment and note that Hendrik used to regularly post a drawing that he had produced to act as a Force Flow diagram and even indicated the force through the body and legs with a spiraling line that represented a spring.

So. Hendrik (or Navin), can you answer the questions I have asked above? This might go a long ways towards helping people understand what you are talking about. Because....again....what I showed in my video and what you showed in your videos looks exactly the same to an outside observer that is not a "Force Flow expert." Yet you say I am completely off. If you can actually explain the differences, that will help lots of us understand what you are talking about! Please don't see this as a challenge, but rather as an opportunity for "education" as you noted previously. Thanks!
 

Kwan Sau

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
349
Reaction score
60
Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...but maybe through different terminology. Kind of like if you were to discuss A&P or human biomechanics with a doctor from another culture...I'd bet you both would be talking about the same knowledge/skill but through the lens of language and cultural differences.
To me, movement is movement. No need to chop it up into a multitude of terms or lessons. Keep it simple.
To me, receiving / generating / issuing are one big happy family. No need to segregate, write books, over complicate things.
Us humanoids can only move in/through so many ways or planes of motion. We only have so many joints, that have their individual ROM's.
We are all bound by gravity, hence the importance of horse training, stance(s), etc.
Food for thought: maybe this lost ancient mysterious chi "skill" HS supposedly found/invented/discovered/created was abandoned in the 1840's for a good reason? Lacking practicality perhaps?
 

Jake104

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
680
Reaction score
244
Location
Gilbert AZ
Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...but maybe through different terminology. Kind of like if you were to discuss A&P or human biomechanics with a doctor from another culture...I'd bet you both would be talking about the same knowledge/skill but through the lens of language and cultural differences.
To me, movement is movement. No need to chop it up into a multitude of terms or lessons. Keep it simple.
To me, receiving / generating / issuing are one big happy family. No need to segregate, write books, over complicate things.
Us humanoids can only move in/through so many ways or planes of motion. We only have so many joints, that have their individual ROM's.
We are all bound by gravity, hence the importance of horse training, stance(s), etc.
Food for thought: maybe this lost ancient mysterious chi "skill" HS supposedly found/invented/discovered/created was abandoned in the 1840's for a good reason? Lacking practicality perhaps?
Good post! It is simple, no need to over complicate it.
 

JPinAZ

Blue Belt
Joined
Apr 9, 2011
Messages
231
Reaction score
81
Location
Arizona
WC has a concept Loi Lau Hoi Sung. Very generally, it's about receiving force & expelling force. If you can receive force into your root/ground without being bounced back or loosing your structure, you're doing it right - regardless what labels are put to the method (bracing, loading, force flow, etc). It's really that simple. No need for any mystical flim flam descriptors borrowed from other arts - WC is a complete system that is simple, direct & efficient. If you can loi lau without giving up your space/structure or losing your root/COG, then you are doing it correctly regardless if HS or anyone else cries - "you're doing it wrong".

That reminds me of a funny story. Years ago a certain someone that is famous for saying people aren't doing it right, don't understand, etc. (We'll call him Mr X) met up with a Chi Sim expert at a public event. The Chi Sim expert dumped Mr. X onto his butt without knowing or caring about Mr. X's mystical/superior flim flam methods. He simply entered his space, and put him to the ground (not in a hostile way mind you), with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".
Point is, it doesn't matter how much one theorizes, posts online, makes videos, or says people don't understand, aren't doing it right, it's not this or that, this way is the best etc - if they can't even make it work for themselves, the really don't have anything to say. At that point they should probably just shut up and start actually training & pressure testing what they're going on about before they think they can tell others what's right wrong.

So Keith, who cares what HS or anyone says? If you can make it work, then it's 'right'. If you can't, then you figure out what's wrong, train harder and/or look for methods that help you improve. Simple :)
 
Last edited:

Kwan Sau

Purple Belt
Joined
Sep 5, 2013
Messages
349
Reaction score
60
...with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!"

Holy crap...now that is FUNNY! Almost lost my lunch! hahaha...thx for sharing that!!! :D

I would have looked at Mr X said "prove to me its NOT wing chun!" :rolleyes:
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
31,863
Reaction score
6,386
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
I think I might know who MR X is :D.... but I will keep it to myself ;)

And it is nothing new, you will find similar things with different names in both Xingyiquan and Taijiquan...so yes some of it is semantics.....but some of it, from Mr X, is BS
 

Kung Fu Wang

Sr. Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
11,168
Reaction score
2,997
Location
Austin, Tx/Shell Beach, Ca
Personally, I think we are all describing the same thing...
I like to compare the "similarity" between Shuai Chiao "hip throw" and Judo "hip throw". I don't like to compare the difference. Some may like to use their

- hip to bounce on their opponent's belly upward.
- low horse stance to lift their opponent's feet off the ground.

As long as it works on the mat, who care which method that you are using. If you think that your method is better than others, get into the ring, or step on the mat and prove it.
 

Wing Chun Auckland

Green Belt
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
175
Reaction score
60
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Thanks for reposting the topic. As I'm new to this forum I couldn't keep up with all the references to all these people that I don't really know. But it's a topic that interests me so I would like to hear more.

My 2 cents on stance:
Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance.
Apart from practicing Chu Shong Tin lineage, I also practice Wong Shun Leung style. WSL definitely use a form of bracing to hold their structure. This is used to good effect. If too much pressure is put on the arm structures, it is going to move their stance back because their body is integrated.

Chu Shong Tin style will not brace and they don't need to get into deep stances to hold or withstand force. Apart from correct alignment and sinking, one of the ways that force is received (as I understand it) is thinking of the force traveling from in front of you, down your back, down buttocks and hamstrings, then through knees to the front and up the front side of your legs and up the front side of your body back to arm structure. I can't actually do this effectively yet, but I can after being set up by an accomplished teacher. So the force cycles in a circle back to your partner.

I also have a keen interest in a new art called Aunkai. They have a series of ways to develop body integration and alignment. Bracing is definitely a no no in this practice. There are a lot of drills they use to teach the body how to align itself.

I started an internal martial arts meet up in auckland because I was interested in stance etc. While many had good knowledge of how their respective arts work, I was unable to find anyone who could take force directly.

So while someone like Hendrik maybe referring to even higher levels of stance skill and knowledge, there is still a huge gap most people's knowledge in even basic ability to hold a stance.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
Thanks for reposting the topic. As I'm new to this forum I couldn't keep up with all the references to all these people that I don't really know. But it's a topic that interests me so I would like to hear more.

My 2 cents on stance:
Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance.
Apart from practicing Chu Shong Tin lineage, I also practice Wong Shun Leung style. WSL definitely use a form of bracing to hold their structure. This is used to good effect. If too much pressure is put on the arm structures, it is going to move their stance back because their body is integrated.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re"most wng chun I have seen" comment understandable BUT there are folks who have seriously worked on
wing chun stance training and are more stable than TST or WSL. Ho Ka ming is now completely retired but I am referring to him and his best students. Wing chun folks area very diverse group.Generalizations can be unreliable

Just as huge numbers of people practice taiji-onlya few really understand the principles.
So also in wing chun few are good at it. Ditto for boxing- a decidedly external activity-few reach the top ten--they stay for a little while and then decline. In more internal arts one's abilities can increase for longer periods.

It is not easy to integrate external and internal elements...in his evolution Ip Man did it
as Chan Wah Shon did not.

Welcome to the discussions.
 

Jens

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
137
Reaction score
39
That reminds me of a funny story. Years ago a certain someone that is famous for saying people aren't doing it right, don't understand, etc. (We'll call him Mr X) met up with a Chi Sim expert at a public event. The Chi Sim expert dumped Mr. X onto his butt without knowing or caring about Mr. X's mystical/superior flim flam methods. He simply entered his space, and put him to the ground (not in a hostile way mind you), with Mr. X sitting on his butt crying out "that's not wing chun! that's not wing chun!".

This Chi Sim expert must have been really impressed with Mr. X wing chun system because after this meeting, he ended up learning and incorporating material from Mr. X's wing chun system into his creation "Chi Shim Weng Chun".
 

Wing Chun Auckland

Green Belt
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
175
Reaction score
60
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Yep, I just didn't want to name specific lineages and start a war. Plus even if there is a specific lineage in my area that are not good at something, that doesn't mean they represent the whole lineage. Or for that matter the people who I exchange with may not be ideal representations of their school.

There is no Ho Kam Ming lineage in Auckland or NZ so all I know is what I have seen on YouTube. We did have a guy from the states visit us once from this lineage. He was on holiday. The consensus was that his wing Chun was decent - had good structure etc.

CHu Shong Tin style puts a huge emphasis on stance and structure often to the exclusion of everything else. Anything that a style puts its focus and attention on, they are going to be good at. If anything, a criticism that might be valid for Chu Shong tin style, is that there is very little emphasis on practical application.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KPM

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
My 2 cents on stance:
Most Wing Chun I have seen have no ability to hold a stance.
Apart from practicing Chu Shong Tin lineage, I also practice Wong Shun Leung style. WSL definitely use a form of bracing to hold their structure. This is used to good effect. If too much pressure is put on the arm structures, it is going to move their stance back because their body is integrated.

Chu Shong Tin style will not brace and they don't need to get into deep stances to hold or withstand force. Apart from correct alignment and sinking, one of the ways that force is received (as I understand it) is thinking of the force traveling from in front of you, down your back, down buttocks and hamstrings, then through knees to the front and up the front side of your legs and up the front side of your body back to arm structure. I can't actually do this effectively yet, but I can after being set up by an accomplished teacher. So the force cycles in a circle back to your partner.

In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.


Steve- have you seen Sonenberg's article in the current issue of Kung Fu magazine.















In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
 

Jake104

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
680
Reaction score
244
Location
Gilbert AZ
I like to compare the "similarity" between Shuai Chiao "hip throw" and Judo "hip throw". I don't like to compare the difference. Some may like to use their

- hip to bounce on their opponent's belly upward.
- low horse stance to lift their opponent's feet off the ground.

As long as it works on the mat, who care which method that you are using. If you think that your method is better than others, get into the ring, or step on the mat and prove it.
Good post! I'd like to also piont out body type and physical ability or disability in my case is also a factor. For me my back being fused has forced me to change how i do things. It's has actually helped me become more structurally aware. I'm always trying to protect my back and keep it in alignment. So It almost forces me to have good posture and structure. Or else I pay for it later. Now I try and do things smarter not harder. Like your hip throw example. I'd have to hip bump and use momentem instead of low horse and lift cause, that ain't happening!
 
Last edited:

geezer

Grandmaster
MT Mentor
Joined
Oct 20, 2007
Messages
6,959
Reaction score
2,986
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Steve- have you seen Sonenberg's article in the current issue of Kung Fu magazine.

Nope. He hasn't spoken to me since our organization split back in 2007. We were training partners going back to 1980 and then suddenly he wouldn't even answer an email. ...WT politics.

Anyway, I'll look for it. Thanks for the heads-up, Joy.
 

Vajramusti

Master Black Belt
Joined
Mar 14, 2010
Messages
1,283
Reaction score
312
Nope. He hasn't spoken to me since our organization split back in 2007. We were training partners going back to 1980 and then suddenly he wouldn't even answer an email. ...WT politics.

Anyway, I'll look for it. Thanks for the heads-up, Joy.[/QUOTE
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
All understood

Hope Jeff, you and I can meet for brunch sometime.
 

Wing Chun Auckland

Green Belt
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
175
Reaction score
60
Location
Auckland, New Zealand
Hey Geezer,
Yeah that's right. Another thing you can do when the pressure is built up too much is draw them down. Yeah, Robert Chu is someone who I have an interest in. I really liked what he had to say on wingchungeeks. Also like what Alan Orr says. I hear he is in New Zealand now so it would be good to meet him one day. However, from his site it doesn't look like has a wing Chun school as such.

Yes as someone said, a lot of it is simple body mechanics. That said many schools don't put any focus on it.
 

Jake104

Black Belt
Joined
Nov 26, 2010
Messages
680
Reaction score
244
Location
Gilbert AZ
In our lineage we do both. If the pressure we receive is stronger than our stance, we use that pressure to turn aside and deflect force like a bull-fighter, or sometimes use the energy to step back, absorbing the force. Conversely, it is quite possible to receive the energy, directing it downward to the ground through the heels and then cycle it back up the front and out through the arms again as you described with reference to the Tsui Sheung Tin branch. However, as we interpret this, there is nothing "mystical" about it. It is simple body-mechanics.

OK, well not that simple. I mess up a lot when I try it. But even if you only get it right some of the time, you know how it can work!

BTW, I think you will find this in a lot of WC lineages, just described differently. I watch a lot of Alan Orr's CSL WC videos. His stuff often looks a lot different, but I'm sure I've seen him do essentially the same thing, and more to the point, he can use it in application against resistance.
Another good post! We are on a roll!
I agree most lineages do have it. I like Alan Orr's stuff.

What I think is important about dealing with force or energy is, holding pressure is only a temporary thing in combat. It's not a demo. So once contact is made, that's your move. Now it's there move. So the contact is a starting point. That split second of force to force decides what happens next. The energy decides whether I spring compress or redirect. But it's fast. I don't sit there and try and hold the pressure in a fight. The force to force, or point of contact is giving me a reading. At least this is how I look at it. Now there are also other ways or tricks of combining energies at the same time. Like sending in energy at the point of contact that disrupts. But bottom line is, all this compressing, springing, bracing ,bouncing etc is really just timing. It's learning how to feel recognize and execute all at once. The real skill is learning how to condense it down to the smallest and quickest movements possible. And not getting caught up on how much force your stance can hold. It's just Chi Sao!
 
Last edited:

Jens

Green Belt
Joined
Jan 13, 2011
Messages
137
Reaction score
39
This Chi Sim expert must have been really impressed with Mr. X wing chun system because after this meeting, he ended up learning and incorporating material from Mr. X's wing chun system into his creation "Chi Shim Weng Chun".
Where did you think one of the Fa kuen (flower fists) came from in Chi shim weng chun? it was from Mr X's wing chun system.
 
Last edited:
Top