I haven't used it for holding, just striking. But, I remember dealing with a few who did. Very effective holds against fingers and my thumb.
Pocket Stick usefullness and tactics
- Thread starter Apollo
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MardiGras Bandit said:
The extra leverage on a small area can break things easily. I have had techniques done on me. They are quite effective. If you can't do decent moves without it, you won't be able to do anything with it. But I challenge anyone to try to resist some of the moves that you can find in Masaaki Hatsumi's Stick Fighting book.
As for the pocket sticks smaller area and metal construction not being enough to matter- isn't this the reason that there are brass knuckles? The knuckles concentrate the power in a smaller area and is harder than flesh just like pocket sticks. Its track record in real encounters is well known- so much so that they are illeagle in a lot of areas. So the principle and dynamics of pocket sticks are pretty much established.
If you know how, you can grasp other things (or people) while still holding onto the stick. But that is a skill you have to learn from a real teacher I think.
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
Exactly. I am convinced that to dismiss this weapon you must either be intentionally avoiding reality or simply and plainly ignorant of its use.
bushidomartialarts
Senior Master
i see a lot of value in training with pocket sticks -- as i mentioned earlier, skill with one of those things means you can improvise weaponry just about anywhere.
for a carry weapon, my main objection to pocket sticks/kubatons/pens is opportunity cost. they have advantages, but just about all of them i've seen are outstripped by something else.
they can make joint locks nastier, but a joint lock performed by somebody skilled is nasty enough without them. so why tie up your hand and limit flexibility?
they can add authority to a punch if used like brass knuckles, but most pocket stick type weapons tend to be pretty light. actual brass knuckles, or a roll of quarters, or a rock would do the job better. better yet, a collapsing baton will hit harder still and give you range.
the kubatons or longer ones can be used edge-on to create a small surface area striking point, but if you're going to go for penetration like that why not use a knife?
the flashlight angle is a neat wrinkle (and despite his michael-moore style delivery in this forum, i intend to buy mr. elmore's book to learn more about that), but why use a mini-flash when a nice 4-battery maglight hits harder and at greater range?
i can see the usefulness for an LEO or other professional who needs a wide continuum of force available on demand. i can also see a sort of 'swiss army knife' elegance to the weapon -- it has a lot of uses in one device. there's something to be said for ease of portability and concealment. and many are easy to pass off as 'not a weapon' in a security screen.
ultimately, though, i see the value for your average practitioner more as a training tool than something to carry about.
for a carry weapon, my main objection to pocket sticks/kubatons/pens is opportunity cost. they have advantages, but just about all of them i've seen are outstripped by something else.
they can make joint locks nastier, but a joint lock performed by somebody skilled is nasty enough without them. so why tie up your hand and limit flexibility?
they can add authority to a punch if used like brass knuckles, but most pocket stick type weapons tend to be pretty light. actual brass knuckles, or a roll of quarters, or a rock would do the job better. better yet, a collapsing baton will hit harder still and give you range.
the kubatons or longer ones can be used edge-on to create a small surface area striking point, but if you're going to go for penetration like that why not use a knife?
the flashlight angle is a neat wrinkle (and despite his michael-moore style delivery in this forum, i intend to buy mr. elmore's book to learn more about that), but why use a mini-flash when a nice 4-battery maglight hits harder and at greater range?
i can see the usefulness for an LEO or other professional who needs a wide continuum of force available on demand. i can also see a sort of 'swiss army knife' elegance to the weapon -- it has a lot of uses in one device. there's something to be said for ease of portability and concealment. and many are easy to pass off as 'not a weapon' in a security screen.
ultimately, though, i see the value for your average practitioner more as a training tool than something to carry about.
Phil Elmore
Master of Arts
Because you can carry a SureFire or a Streamlight with you every day, anywhere, without raising attention. You cannot walk through life with a 4-D Maglite swinging from your belt -- or at least, most of us can't -- without at least looking out of place. Such a large light is also heavier; the heavier and bulkier something is, the less likely you are to carry it everywhere.
The best way to keep such a light on hand is attached to brackets someplace where you spend a lot of time. I keep one bolted under my desk:
http://themartialist.com/images/4dmaglite10.jpg
We could just as easily say, "Why get a license to carry a concealed handgun when an assault rifle is so much more effective?" The answer is the same -- you can carry a concealed handgun all day, every day, without raising alarm. You cannot walk around with a rifle on your shoulder (most places, anyway) without alerting the neighbors.
-I have played with them is how I describe my experiance with them. What that means is I've poked and prodded, and been poked and prodded with little to no resistance. I have struck heavy bags and dummy men with them. I have not sparred live with them. I believe my experiance is pretty much the same as those that are pro-pocket stick. From what I can tell the majority of the people in favor of pocket sticks don't spar with them. I would love to hear people's details of live sparring with them if they honestly have that experiance. I don't currently have that training option.MJS said:
In fact, the best argument for pocket sticks I've heard to date is Crafty Dog of the Dog Brothers stating in a similar thread to this that he believes in their effectiveness. It's a pretty safe bet that he knows what he's talking about when it comes to sticks. I stand by my position though for the reasons stated. I would also like to know if he would personally carry one.
What I mean by "tactical advantage" is yes it concentrates striking force, just not by enough of a factor to warrent carry.
Now based on your last paragraph we're pretty close in opinion. One of my major arguments has been that a pocket stick isn't a fight stopper. That all by itself negates its use by a civilian imo. This is based on my civilian SD strategy. If I am warrented to escalate force to defend myself beyond basic empty hands when escape is not an option (cornered and/or defending loved ones), then my opinion is that I should skip all less than lethal weapons and go straight to lethal force. The pocket stick does not provide lethal force and would be a waste of valuable time imo.
That is not to say that I would ever be against the use of a heavy pen, or magick marker if you were taking the hypothetical *** beating. Fall and find your hand on a pocket stick shaped implement. By all means strike with it. That is not the same as carrying a 6" piece of plastic with your keys on it at all times that you have in your "mental personal force escalation plan" as a legitimate step along the way to deadly force. I am arguing against the latter.
-By "test against resisting oppenents" do you mean all striking and grappling escapes allowed, assuming proper protective gear?bignick said:
I'm not surprised a LEO trainer believes in their effectiveness. I believe they have some use on a semi-resisting suspect that just needs a strong signal that he better do what the hell the cop is telling him to do. I believe that pain is a good signal for such a situation. That context is drastically different than a civilian though. That cop would also probably be using pepper spray in that situation now.
My instructor teaches a personal defense class at college, he always teaches the kubotan. One semester a lovely young lady was on spring break and was attacked as her and some of her friends walked past an alley, a guy tried to pull her into the alleyway. She struck the attacker in the side of the head with the end of her kubotan and dropped him cold to the ground. When she came back she said she just ran like hell afterwards and didn't know if she just knocked him out or killed him. As my instructor says, who cares? It's an occupational hazard of being a bad guy, but my point is that she was of slight build and musclature, and still managed to drop the guy cold to the cement with one blow...
If that isn't a "fight stopper" I don't know what is....
If that isn't a "fight stopper" I don't know what is....
-To get to the positions to apply those painful locks and holds requires you to be in control in the first place. In the real world as a civilian, once you do that, the situation is either over or its time to escalate to lethal force imo. There would be no need to introduce a pocket stick OR it would be time to pull the serious hardware.Don Roley said:
Why an old school brass knuckle duster is effective and a 6" plastic stick is not is pretty simple imo. The brass is obviously heavier. But more importantly it can be used as a striking surface with a more powerful strike.
MardiGras Bandit
Green Belt
shesulsa said:
Sudafed is illegal, that doesn't make it dangerous. The government sucks, and will ban anything it can whenever it can. If it can't ban it, it will regulate untill nobody bothers to get one.
Are pocketsticks actually illegal anywhere? I thought the point was you could carry them (not that you couldn't improvise one easily enough).
You can't carry a kubaton in many states. Depending upon the letter of the law and the officer who finds it on you, a simile might be confiscated and you might be cited. Unless you have a reason for carrying a small stick on your person at all times.
WingChun Lawyer
Green Belt
This comes from someone who has zero experience with pocket sticks, but...if you feel like carrying something about that size, why not make sure it has a blade on it? What is the POINT of carrying such a thing, other than laws against knifes?
I can understand how it can be good to train with that thing - learn how to deal with improvised wepaons and such. But actually carrying it around for self defense purposes seems rather silly to me, unless, as RoninPimp said, you are a cop and must have every trick available.
I can understand how it can be good to train with that thing - learn how to deal with improvised wepaons and such. But actually carrying it around for self defense purposes seems rather silly to me, unless, as RoninPimp said, you are a cop and must have every trick available.
RoninPimp said:
No, not my experience.
Unless you want to say you were actually trained in its use by a skilled instructor and had techniques done on you while you made efforts to resist your experience is far short of mine. Two guys in a back yard playing with a stick is not even close IMO.
If you have not been shown what I have been shown then I can understand why you don't know how to use these things effectively. The trap is in thinking that just because you have never been shown effective stuff and don't know how to make things work, that everyone else is in the same boat as an untrained person like yourself. Rejecting something you have never been properly instructed in out of hand is a big, silly jump if you ask me.
RoninPimp said:
No. That is merely your experience with the matter. I have had things reversed on me by people who were previously not in control by use of a short stick. Again, if you have not had the experience I have, I can understand why you think the way you do. But you should try to keep an open mind and not reject things just because you have never had a chance to properly learn what others have.
Because something with a blade is a deadly weapon. You can only pull and use it when you can show that you are in fear for your life. If you pull it otherwise, the least you are looking at is probably being charged with brandishing a weapon.
But impact weapons are not classified as leathal weapons just about everywhere. You are allowed to use it against unarmed attacks in most areas. Police use impact weapons against unarmed people just for not following orders but they can't use firearms or other leathal weapons like knives unless they can show that the only option they had was to kill the other guy or be killed in turn.
And in modern times, with small flashlights and such, you can carry them around and find lots of uses for them other than as a weapon. I carry a flashlight with me every day. Sometimes I leave the pepper spray at home because it is dead weight. But the surefire is with me pretty much every time I leave the house. And that means that it will be with me, and probably already in my hands, when someone starts looking like he is going to try something violent.
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