Please help me decide between these three Martial Arts schools in my area

[JowGaWolf]

Not wanting to train MMA is one thing. Nothing wrong with having a personal preference. If you want to train weapons, find an escrima school.

But what you're saying above about mental and physical health makes zero sense.

No because it doesn't make zero sense. There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health. Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym. As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga. Conor McGregor does Yoga. Yoga is not MMA

You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.

 

[ballen0351]

Welcome. There has already been some good advise given and some not so good advise so I wont repeat any of that. I just wanted to say welcome and hopefully you find something that makes you happy. Ive bounced around alot staying at different styles for a year others for 10+. Sometimes 2 different styles at the same time. I just enjoy leaning new stuff not so much worried about mastering anything or using it for self defense. Im back around to my second or maybe third time doing BJJ as well as something new Ive never tried called Raw Combat. I say all that to say dont feel you are stuck with whatever you pick now. You can always try something new later.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You specifically mentioned health. I dare say MMA training would get him more fit than most TMA.

Just saying. You get out of your training what you put into it.

TMA isn't the issue in terms of fitness. We can't blame the system for people who only want to show up for classes once a week or for people who only want fast black belts. There will be some who are slack and some who aren't. Even if the OP joins an MMA gym, it's up to him to put in the work. If he doesn't put in the work then he'll be like other people who don't put in the work. It's easy to tell who puts in the work. It shows on their bodies and in their skills. With the exception of those who put in the work and then didn't maintain for whatever reason. But if you put in the work, then it will show.

 

[Unkogami]

Just saying. You get out of your training what you put into it.

TMA isn't the issue in terms of fitness. We can't blame the system for people who only want to show up for classes once a week or for people who only want fast black belts. There will be some who are slack and some who aren't. Even if the OP joins an MMA gym, it's up to him to put in the work. If he doesn't put in the work then he'll be like other people who don't put in the work. It's easy to tell who puts in the work. It shows on their bodies and in their skills. With the exception of those who put in the work and then didn't maintain for whatever reason. But if you put in the work, then it will show.

Those pictures are little stunts for tourists, not indicators of fitness.

 

[Steve]

No because it doesn't make zero sense. There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health. Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym. As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga. Conor McGregor does Yoga. Yoga is not MMA

You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.

Oh boy. Okay. When I have some more time I might try to respond to some of this.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Those pictures are little stunts for tourists, not indicators of fitness.

I thought about how I would respond to that. But I'll just let you keep believing this.

 

[Mider]

The Kyokushin school looks good, is there any MMA near by ?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Oh boy. Okay. When I have some more time I might try to respond to some of this.

Take all the time you want. MMA can't be everything. Just like Kung Fu or TMA can't be everything that's just the reality.

Don't take my word for it. Take his.

maybe ask

 

[Steve]

No because it doesn't make zero sense. There are different things that can be done for mental and physical health. Alot of the TMA systems have things about health and mental well being that you aren't going to find in a MMA gym. As a matter of fact when MMA fighters want that aspect of it, they go outside of MMA and do things like Yoga. Conor McGregor does Yoga. Yoga is not MMA

You can't get what you get out of Yoga by doing MMA.

As you say, there are different things that can be done for mental and physical health. So, it seems really odd that you don't recognize the obvious physical, mental, and spiritual benefits that MMA (and other competitive arts) provide.

That's true.


Most TMA schools that I know of that focus (with exceptions) are more likely to work on deescalation method than punching someone in the face. One of the things we hear in TMA schools is "we only teach for defense." One of the drills that's common is that that one student punches me and I must react. I cannot do anything until the student punches. The martial arts is almost taught from the perspective some "Someone must attack me first before I can fight back."

What a sentence. Most... that you know of... are more likely? Well, it's settled then.

But, for the sake of discussion, let's take this at face value. I would say that martial arts schools are one of many places where folks can learn effective deescalation techniques and skills. In fact, if deescalation techniques are the goal, I'd take quality call center training and experience all day long over TMA instruction. People who work in government, in 800 number call centers, in food service, as flight attendants... now THOSE people are learning real world deescalation skills, and I would bet that many have excellent training on the topic.
I'd say the same thing for MMA training, too. I wouldn't count on a martial arts instructor to teach me anything but martial arts. That's were folks get into trouble.

But, as I've said many times before, if I'm looking for someone who is well prepared for self defense, I'll take the MMA trained guy who doesn't engage in high risk behaviors (e.g., drinking to excess in public, drug use, moonlighting as a prostitute, running with a gang) who is inherently just a nice person, and who worked for several years as a call center agent, or something similar. That person will be fit, happy, have some fighting skills, and also have at least some rudimentary deescalation skills and instincts.

We can pull up tons of TMA videos that start off with "When A does this, then I react and do that." I understand why they say this to children but I think they take it too far sometimes and as a result it makes it difficult to fight offensively with Martial Arts. Some even make kids take pledges that they will only use martial arts to defend themselves..

Kids are whole different topic. Suffice to say, the kids on the D&D club are learning about as much self defense skill as the kids in most tiny tigers classes. The difference is that the D&D club kids are likely to be more self aware about their fighting prowess, and won't suffer the same crisis of confidence that a tiny tiger who has delusions of grandeur will.

As with adults, if you want a kid to learn to fight, they need to fight. Judo, BJJ, wrestling, TKD, boxing. We can argue about which is best, but as much grief as TKD gets... kids in TKD who compete are learning real skills.

If people are being programmed to only used Martial Arts for self-defense, then they are less likely to get into fights. The are also more likely to use other methods to deal with violent conflict. That whole concept of winning a fight without fighting, runs deep in some schools.

If you only learn self defense from a martial arts school, you are being programmed in the manner you suggest. Of the two of us, one is programmed as you describe... and it's not me. What I would suggest is that if you stop thinking of martial arts schools as "self defense" schools, and instead think of them as what they are (a place to learn to fight), then you start to think of self defense in a much more constructive manner.

For the rest, you are making really clear the fundamental issues with the TMA mindset toward self defense. People can get a lot of physical and mental health benefits from working out at the gym. They can get it from surfing, or hiking. This idea that TMA has a monopoly on it is silly. Literally any physically challenging activity has the potential for physical, mental, and emotional benefit. In fact, I would say, the more prominent these things are in the sales pitch for a martial arts school, the less likely it will deliver.

Yep. spiritual health, chi, (qui), weapons, lion dance, forms (kata), forms competition, point sparring, weapons sparring, lessons on internal vs external, soft vs hard. Traditional training methods.. For the physical part you can't beat age or the problems that come with it. As much as we like to bang things out we can't always do that. There will come a time when our training will change, unless you talking about the non-fighting parts of MMA. I just don't see 80 large group of 80 year old dudes in the MMA ring. But I can find a large number of 80 year old people practicing there TMA system staying active and being healthy. I don't see the TMA people getting in to the ring either. At some point of the time, it becomes necessary to stop banging the body out like young people do.

So, the metric you're using now is longevity? That seems arbitrary. I know a lot of old folks do tai chi. My mom is one, and I am all for the health benefits to her. But she also swims, which is as good for her as tai chi. And she does not delude herself into thinking she is learning martial skill. She uses her brains and her experience, as she always has.

I know old dudes do BJJ and Judo, as well. We have some old guys on this forum.

But all of this is a red herring. If we're talking about physical, mental, and emotional health benefits for a person in a moment, longevity is only one of many factors. Shoot, if longevity is the single determiner of efficacy here, I would say video games are more effective than anything else, because you literally just need to have functioning hands to do it.

If I want to be as fit as possible then I have to do it in a way that my body isn't sustaining unhealthy damage. Randy Couture talks about the similar things @9:27 He mentions about how his body holding up allowed him to stay as active as he has been able to do. I think a few months after this, interview he had a heart attack..

Elite level athletes in any sport put their bodies through a tremendous amount of physical stress.

Tiger Woods, Rory McIlroy, and a slew of professional golfers who suffer from chronic back issues, elbow problems, and injuries related to engaging in a sport as an elite level professional.

If you go to Sun City West, AZ and walk around the golf courses practically any morning of the week, you will see hundreds of geezers out there playing golf. Thousands of geriatric golfers are on the links every week across the world.

But, like you, I can easily find an article or even a couple of articles on Google that would make support a specious argument to the contrary.

 

[Steve]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

Hey, so how's it going? Have you taken a class at the Kyokushin school yet?

 

[Unkogami]

I thought about how I would respond to that. But I'll just let you keep believing this.

I don't have to take it on faith. I've been there.

 

[AIKIKENJITSU]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

I have practiced and taught American Kenpo to just adults, for fifty years. I have studied up to black belt in Tracy Kenpo and American Kenpo. I have tried Judo and Akido.
For fitness, American Kenpo is very good. I'm 80, but people think I'm in my early fifties. This is because Kenpo techniques keeps me very limber. American Kenpo is infused with kung fu moves. Just practicing the self defense techniques, regularly, will keep your body, legs and arms very flexible. You do not want a martial art that goes in straight lines, but in circular movement 85 % of the time.
I don't believe the forms are usable and I never do them. The techs are mini forms anyway and you just glance at the technique in your manual and you can practice it easily for keeping your flexibility. I think the forms are outdated. They were used centuries ago by teachers so they could remember techniques, but now we have manuals.
Just tell your instructor you do not want to learn forms, just techniques and you don't care for belt rank, you just want to learn techniques.
As for defense, I am slim, 5'2" and have had to defend myself about six times, give or take and I always finished it with just one move. American Kenpo is good for self-defense, techs are great for keeping you flexible, and of course to protect you if needed. But you always have to practice at least two times a week to keep your muscle memory.

Good luck!
Sifu
Puyallup,
Washington

 

[KungfukennyG]

Well any of the three would be fine for the latter two reasons. But if it's actual skill in fighting you want, Find an MMA club

Sorry, but that was not a helpful answer. If you plan to fight MMA guys, go to an MMA school. If you want to learn real-life self-defense, the kind you would normally need outside of a competitive ring, any of those karate or Tang Soo Do schools would be fine if the teacher is good, although you should go to each one and watch a class with adults to see how they behave and the kinds of skill you see. Having a good attitude and not too egotistical is important, too. No Cobra Kai stuff. Most of us don't get into physical fights as adults because we are smart. You don't need MMA to be good at self-defense, although it helps to be open to all styles.

 

[JowGaWolf]

So, it seems really odd that you don't recognize the obvious physical, mental, and spiritual benefits that MMA (and other competitive arts) provide.

Name one spiritual benefit from MMA. I'm not talking about something spiritual that someone brings with them to MMA. I'm talking about something spiritual that is taught in MMA. What is the spiritual teaching that MMA brings to the world.?

 

[Ji Yuu]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

Any hand-to-hand combat system (martial art) is good as long as you learn how to fight (engage your attacker). I would stay away from the schools that only teach according to the rules for competition unless you're going that route. One way to tell if the school is into sport vs defense training is seeing how students target each other during sparring (they fight how they are trained). If they only target the "legal" zones, you may not want to train with them. On the other hand, if a school teaches kicking to the knee or targeting areas that would get you disqualified in a tourney, you may be on the right track.

 

[pudaoking]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

Hi GuitaristDog87, I have studied many forms of MA since I was a kid back in the 70's. I have more experience and knowledge than most when it comes to MA. My 1st style as a kid was Shotokan Karate and I did Tang Soo Do for 4.5 years back in the late 80's. So I have some experience with just those 2 styles alone. What you need to understand is that Karate is Karate period. It is all cookie cutter, same old same old. You will learn the same thing from any of the schools you are looking at. It's all basic level stuff. The only difference is the instructor themselves, and their teaching skills and how aggressive their school's attitude is. You HAVE to go to each one and take a free class to see if you are a match and click with them. One thing I will tell you right off the bat, MMA is not the answer, first off it is purely a sport like boxing and most important it is ONLY a young man's game. They use all muscular force as their main driving engine and it will wane with age as will your speed. MMA is for impatient students that want immediate gratification for the here and now while they are young. It also is what is referred to as a degenerative art. Which means you will most likely have permanent injuries down the road from improper training like arthritis and back issues. MMA guys like to go toe-to toe and fight with their opponents you don't want to fight, what you really want is to control your opponent. What it sounds to me that your looking for really isn't self defense. Self defense will usually teach you just enough about fighting to get you killed. What you are looking for is a life-long MA like Wing Chun for example, which doesn't rely on strength at all, you don't need to be really fast, and you don't waste lots of energy. They offer some of the most efficient methods for fighting. It is one of the few styles I still practice along with Xing Yi and Baguazhang. Again the school will always depend on the teacher. As far as I am concerned, 95% of all Karate schools out there whether it is Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, Shoin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, etc, ( I studied all of those mentioned at one time or another) don't really have a clue what they are doing since you can't question most teachers methods or reasons for why they do things cause the truth is they don't know themselves. Just remember ALL Karate (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean) comes from one of the 18 main White Crane Kung Fu schools back in the 1800's. I forget which one, but Karate is only the foundation and some intermediate levels of a much larger art. It is not complete by any means and is limited. I don't have any traditional Chinese MA where I live now and only have the same type of offerings you have available to you so I stay home and practice what I already know. There are also some very good Online schools out there teaching excellent MA and you can send them videos each month and get progress Reponses back from the teacher so you might want to look into that as well. You won't get the hands on and direct corrections with students and the instructor but you can go at your own pace and watch and review 24/7 any of the online lessons. Take my advice as you will, and good luck in your training.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'd take quality call center training and experience all day long over TMA instruction.

There's a big difference between angry people on the phone and angry people in person. No one trains self-defense by going to call center training.

 

[Johnkungfu]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

If your looking for self defense. - difference is tang soo do is korean style with high kick and aerial kicks and two step spar - kyokushin is usually full contact only kick to the head punch the chest - for stand up to me nothing beats boxing &muay thai. However if could only choose one it would be kyokushin - i am not fond of rank driven arts
No politics in a k.o

 

[Sensei Matt]

Hi everybody, this is my first post. I am an adult male age 35, I would like to learn a martial art(s) while I still can, mostly for self-defense, as well as for health and self-esteem reasons. I made an account on here to seek advice and opinions. In my area, there's a Shotokan Karate dojo within walking distance from me. But there's also a Kyokushin Karate dojo as well as a Tang Soo Do dojo about a 10 minute drive from me. I'm leaning towards the Kyokushin one because from what I read it's most effective for self-defense. In my childhood, I did take a few YMCA Karate classes but that's my only experience. Looking forward to replies and chatting with you all, take care.

Keep in mind that “self-defense” is a legal term, not a type of martial arts. That being said, it is important to understand use of force law if you want to learn anyone martial art to protect yourself. There is a lot of awareness training that is vital to staying out of violent encounters as well, and those don’t require physical training. As far as the styles that you mentioned, I would personally look at Kyokushin because there is more training on actually stand up striking. Hopefully you will get more options in your area in the future. Best of luck to you!

 

[Johnkungfu]

Hi GuitaristDog87, I have studied many forms of MA since I was a kid back in the 70's. I have more experience and knowledge than most when it comes to MA. My 1st style as a kid was Shotokan Karate and I did Tang Soo Do for 4.5 years back in the late 80's. So I have some experience with just those 2 styles alone. What you need to understand is that Karate is Karate period. It is all cookie cutter, same old same old. You will learn the same thing from any of the schools you are looking at. It's all basic level stuff. The only difference is the instructor themselves, and their teaching skills and how aggressive their school's attitude is. You HAVE to go to each one and take a free class to see if you are a match and click with them. One thing I will tell you right off the bat, MMA is not the answer, first off it is purely a sport like boxing and most important it is ONLY a young man's game. They use all muscular force as their main driving engine and it will wane with age as will your speed. MMA is for impatient students that want immediate gratification for the here and now while they are young. It also is what is referred to as a degenerative art. Which means you will most likely have permanent injuries down the road from improper training like arthritis and back issues. MMA guys like to go toe-to toe and fight with their opponents you don't want to fight, what you really want is to control your opponent. What it sounds to me that your looking for really isn't self defense. Self defense will usually teach you just enough about fighting to get you killed. What you are looking for is a life-long MA like Wing Chun for example, which doesn't rely on strength at all, you don't need to be really fast, and you don't waste lots of energy. They offer some of the most efficient methods for fighting. It is one of the few styles I still practice along with Xing Yi and Baguazhang. Again the school will always depend on the teacher. As far as I am concerned, 95% of all Karate schools out there whether it is Shotokan, Isshin Ryu, Shoin Ryu, Goju Ryu, Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, etc, ( I studied all of those mentioned at one time or another) don't really have a clue what they are doing since you can't question most teachers methods or reasons for why they do things cause the truth is they don't know themselves. Just remember ALL Karate (Japanese, Okinawan, Korean) comes from one of the 18 main White Crane Kung Fu schools back in the 1800's. I forget which one, but Karate is only the foundation and some intermediate levels of a much larger art. It is not complete by any means and is limited. I don't have any traditional Chinese MA where I live now and only have the same type of offerings you have available to you so I stay home and practice what I already know. There are also some very good Online schools out there teaching excellent MA and you can send them videos each month and get progress Reponses back from the teacher so you might want to look into that as well. You won't get the hands on and direct corrections with students and the instructor but you can go at your own pace and watch and review 24/7 any of the online lessons. Take my advice as you will, and good luck in your training.

Good reply