Pinan to Pyung Ahn

[Kosokun]

So, there is another link for the pyung ahn forms in Korea besides the Moo Duk Won.

R. McLain

Absolutely!

Song Mu Kwan, founder Byung Jik Ro, was a student of Funakoshi.
Oh Do Kwan founder, Choi Hong Hi, was a student of Funakoshi
I've heard two stories about the Ji Do Kwan founder being a student of either Funakoshi or Mabuni. (My money's on Funakoshi)
Chang Mu Kwan's founder, Byung In Yoon, was a student of Toyama.

Bottom line though, is that the most solid line for the introduction of the Pinan forms to Korea was via these students of Japanese instructors. IOW, the Shotokan.

Rob

 

[robertmrivers]

Hello All

There is nothing wrong with doing Tang Soo Do and calling the forms whatever it is that the dialect calls for be it Korean, Japanese or Okinawan... this coming from a strict Okinawan kata stylist. I have students who come in from Korean styles who practice the same basic form structure and they transition nicely into the Okinawan kata skillset.

The problem at hand (and its not really a problem...but more of a "how bad do you want to know the truth" kind if thing) is what happens after a Korean stylist learns everything that his Korean progenitors learned about their Japanese Kata influences? It must be taken into consideration that the Korean masters did not study in Japan long enought to learn the higher level skills of this very in depth art. Most begin to make up things to give their students more to learn...which is fine...but we are now getting away from the practices of most Okinawan teachers and the forms become simply a way to remember basic techniques. It is not about the kick or the punch or why did the front kick turn into a side kick... it is about most of our Korean martial arts brothers and sisters simply not knowing certain internal (secret, if you will) concepts and principles.

I hope this helps. After an Okinawan karate student learns a kata, he then goes on to learn the basic interpretation of the movements. This is no different than the Korean counterparts. However, what happens when this level of understanding is exhausted. In Okinawa, the student does not necessarily learn a new form. He learns to make what he already knows "better".

It is this concept of "better" that separates Korean Tang Soo Do and Okinawan Karate. What makes it better? Is it being faster, or more powerful, or does the timing of the step in regards to the block or punch change? This is about the extent of making a form better in many schools. However, in Okinawan Karate, making these adjustments for timing, target, speed, power, and movement to advance one's uderstanding of a form is still "basic" understanding in Okinawan Karate yet it is the higher level of understanding of most Korean and Japanese arts. This is OK. The students are still learning respect, confidence, self discipline and self defense. These axioms are universal regardless of the country of origin of the martial art.

The difference between Korean arts and Okinawan arts that many Okinawan Karate practitioners sometimes alude to is that the principles that take an Okinawan stylist from Basic understanding to Intermediate and then Advanced understanding never were taught to the Koreans...and most Japanese stylists (sorry). Thus, many Japanese stylists and Korean stylists who truly wish to learn what their instructors missed shed their skin and start to train in an Okinawan style...in hopes of learning the few missing elements of their training. The issue that is hard to get across is that it is not an "interpretation" issue or that different schools are always going to have differences. These missing "links" are PRINCIPLES and concepts that are hundreds of years old and are constant...not interpretive. They are universal regardless of style in the Okinawan martial arts ethos.

When a Korean stylist understands that the forms they are doing are a map...a shell if you will, and the material they need to fill that shell can only be partially filled with their own indigenous methodology, then they are stepping in the right direction. Some continue to teach and train in their Korean art but will add these age old principles to their curriculum once they have learned them from qualified instructors. Others will actually transition to only studying or training in Okinawan Karate. Yet, more than the majority will chalk the differences up to interpretation and continue to teach the way they themselves were taught.

Honestly, I have met more than one Tang Soo Do stylist who is more than happy simply teaching the way they were taught without changing a thing. Cool.

There is nothing in the world wrong with that. As long as you are training...THAT is all that matters. But, hopefully, now, some can see that asking the question "What is the difference between the Pyung Ahns and the Pinans?" is a truly loaded question. Korean stylists will point out technical differences. Okinawan stylists will point out technical, conceptual, philisophical and historical differences. The bottom line is, when it is all on "paper", so to speak, the two sets of forms are worlds apart. But it is not a bad thing as many will try to say. It is only bad if practitioners choose not to accept the differences as more than just interpretive differences. If you have the time, put that white belt on again and see what the commotion is all about. Then add what you learn to what you know. You'll be a better, more well rounded stylist for it.

Best

Rob Rivers

 

[Makalakumu]

But, hopefully, now, some can see that asking the question "What is the difference between the Pyung Ahns and the Pinans?" is a truly loaded question. Korean stylists will point out technical differences. Okinawan stylists will point out technical, conceptual, philisophical and historical differences. The bottom line is, when it is all on "paper", so to speak, the two sets of forms are worlds apart. But it is not a bad thing as many will try to say. It is only bad if practitioners choose not to accept the differences as more than just interpretive differences. If you have the time, put that white belt on again and see what the commotion is all about. Then add what you learn to what you know. You'll be a better, more well rounded stylist for it.

The conceptual, philosophical and historical differences is exactly where I wanted to take this discussion. I'm trying to plumb the depth of our knowledge with a different yard stick. We've talked about technical differences...now lets discuss the conceptual, philosophical, and historical.

We'll start with the name...

Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence in Korean.

Pinan I have been told means Peaceful Mind.

I can see some conceptual and philosophical differences in the nuances of these words...

 

[robertmrivers]

I think all we have here is a transliteration issue (like in the bible...hebrew to greek to english...but when you take the english back to the hebrew it doesn't translate literally).

If you take the old language...Chinese, whose characters the Chinese, Okinawans, Japanese and Koreans all use on the scholastic level, you will find that it is the same 2 characters that are used. They are just pronounced differently depending on the dialect. I don't think there is anything philisophically different about the two translations. It is like in the term Passai...or Bassai (the form)...some translate one of the terms as "castle" and some "fortress". They are slightly different...but the same message is getting across.

Let me pose a simple question that can be the beginning of a technical, historical and philisophical aspect of Okinawan Karate...

Now, I don't speak Korean, so I will need you help. What is the Korean phrase for "forward stance" (or front stance...bow and arrown stance...whatever your school calls it) as it pertains to a form.

Look forward to hearing back

Rob Rivers

 

[Makalakumu]

Chun Gul Jaseh = front stance

Good question...I'm really curious to see where this goes!

 

[Kosokun]

Robert,

That was very well put.

Rob

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Hello All

There is nothing wrong with doing Tang Soo Do and calling the forms whatever it is that the dialect calls for be it Korean, Japanese or Okinawan... this coming from a strict Okinawan kata stylist. I have students who come in from Korean styles who practice the same basic form structure and they transition nicely into the Okinawan kata skillset.

The problem at hand (and its not really a problem...but more of a "how bad do you want to know the truth" kind if thing) is what happens after a Korean stylist learns everything that his Korean progenitors learned about their Japanese Kata influences? It must be taken into consideration that the Korean masters did not study in Japan long enought to learn the higher level skills of this very in depth art.

The difference between Korean arts and Okinawan arts that many Okinawan Karate practitioners sometimes alude to is that the principles that take an Okinawan stylist from Basic understanding to Intermediate and then Advanced understanding never were taught to the Koreans...and most Japanese stylists (sorry).

Rob Rivers

Rob, that was an excellent post. I would like to add that while, Japanese and Korean Karate are missing the nuances of their Okinawan parents, they have evolved their own intricacies and subtleties, thus developing their OWN unique strengths.

Still, you are very correct, IMHO, in your description of what occured in the translation and you have done so with far more class than Mr. Williams did. I have never doubted that the original practioners of these forms would have a different and perhaps greater understanding of their full meaning.

 

[robertmrivers]

Hello All...I am enjoying this very much

There is no doubt that the Japanese and Korean evolutions of the arts are VERY strong. This will not be a “whose art is better” discussion I hope. I hope to just add some perspective on the subject that can be used by everyone that they may know some of the nuances…which will in turn make everyone better at what they do. It has never been in my nature to degrade people just for knowing something that they don’t… that is all this comes down to. Some people know certain things about the arts and they are going to

A. Share
Or
B. Keep it to themselves and continue to facilitate this generation gap.

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt…that they WANT to understand. So I’ll choose A.

What many arts term a front stance…Chun Gul Jaseh (thanks for the Korean lesson upnorth) in Korean and Zenkutsu dachi in Japanese, is one of the staples of any form.

One thing that gets missed, however, is that Zenkutsu Dachi…the original phrase, does not mean “forward or front stance”. It means Zen (forward) Kutsu (lean) Dachi (stance) or forward leaning stance. Literally, one leans forward in the stance. Thus, our historical difference. (I would be curious to learn the literal, word for word translation of Chun and Gul. Perhaps its there but has been mis-translated for so long that nobody notices. )

The technical difference is that when executing a technique from this stance, the upper body is leaning slightly forward…not “back straight” as I am sure so many students have heard their teachers tell them. Here is an analogy as to why this is incorrect… and it is just one of MANY reasons why…

When you punch someone, think of yourself as a 2 barreled shotgun. The first barrel is your lower body…specifically your lead hip to your front leg. The second barrel is your upper body…lead hip to lead shoulder to lead hand. I am going to discuss the upper “barrel” (not enough time for the other). When you shoot a shot gun, the stock has to be firmly against your shoulder. If it is not, the recoil will knock you back and make the shot more inaccurate. Imagine now that the shotgun is suspended in the air. If we pull the trigger, the shotgun will actually blow backwards. This is how most people punch: You step forward, twist your hips forward, move your punch forward…and then at the last second snap your back up straight moving your body motion backwards, then all of that power you were trying to generate forward towards the target gets sent backwards. This is one of the first things an Okinawan Karate stylist will notice about a Korean stylist performing their version of a Pinan or other kata.

We teach that the forward leaning stance must have a slight lean to it…almost equal to the angle in the back leg. This way, everything you are using to generate power is moving forward. This is one of many technical differences in the two methodologies. One has the back straight for proper posture and to look sharp, snapping into place. The other doesn’t care what it looks like…physics dictate what it must do in order to maximize the power of the technique.

Now, philosophically, there are many things…but let’s talk about one major thing…irimi, irimi, irimi. Irimi means entering or closing distance. Ultra simplified, if your back is straight, you can’t reach as far and you are moving away from the target. But it goes much deeper than this. Irimi is the “attitude” of almost every technique in a kata. We can’t get into this too much without actually performing the kata, demonstrating the several layers of understanding of each movement within the kata, and then making note of the common threads of the many kata… one of which is irimi. E-mail does have its limitations. But, again, if I watch someone doing kata, I can tell what is going on in their mind. Are they doing a choreographed exercise…or are they actually in a fight?

This is one very small element of one very insignificant movement in a form. We have looked at one historical, technical and philosophical difference in only this one stance. We have not even put the stance to work yet.

A form has many stances and techniques. There are many forms. We get into these stances by moving forward, stepping to the side, turning around, and stepping back…all of which are NOT just a pattern. These different movements are significant and the principles of explicating these movements is yet another concept that MUST be learned in order to get the proper perspective of the Okinawan masters.

This is one of the roots of frustration that some Okinawan stylists have with their Korean counterparts. What compounds the problem is that most are not willing to do what it takes to get the point across without it sounding argumentative. The problem is, if you don’t explain it logically, it gets interpreted as a culture issue or a personality issue. I hope I am getting the logic across.

Okinawan Karate and Korean “Karate” are different. Not in appearance but what lies in their inner teachings. It is not cultural and is not up to interpretation. However, with a little hard work, many of these generation gaps can be filled.

It is not that one is better than the other. However, we all have an incessant need to go back to our past. Simply, if you do the Pyung Ahns…you need to know where they come from. There are many Korean stylists in the world who are now researching…several on this forum. I’ll certainly do my best to steer you guys (and gals) in the right direction.

Another example: Ankoh Itosu broke up the kata “Kusanku” into 5 parts to make it easier for students to learn the basics…the 5 Pinans. So, just when you have mastered these kata, you move on to the ORIGINAL kata and learn why all the pieces are laid out the way they are. But the Pinans have to be understood on a few different levels first. This is what makes this training so interesting. The technical, historical and philosophical are all intertwined and must all be understood to appreciate the kata.

I hope all of this isn’t confusing. There is simply too much and it will NEVER get explained accurately unless it is done on the floor. This forum will open some doors and some thought processes might change, however, you have to see it and feel it to truly understand it.

If you have any questions about anything don’t hesitate to ask. I am only sorry I didn’t discover all of the curious practitioners on this medium sooner. You can PM or post here. If you’d like me to touch on another subject as it pertains to these concepts just say the word. If you’re close, just come by the dojo…

Best

Rob Rivers

 

[The Kai]

While it is true many okinwans karateka lean, could there be a reason that the Japanese and Korean elimanted this part of the move.
I think that Kyokushinkai leans in slightly when practing thier punchs, don't quote me on this tho, but I remember when we in the pracice stance the feeling of your weight being on the front part of your foot

 

[robertmrivers]

If I am understanding the question correctly...Its not a matter of leaning your weight on the front foot. The weight distribution across the styles is actually the same...more weight on the front than on the back. It is the angle of the upper body that is the lean... Kyokushin and many mainland Japanese styles do lean...most will if the attitude is to move in. Kyokushin is a fighting style so they understand many of the principles of Irimi (entering), Seme (pressure) and Sen no Sen (attacking the intent).

Rob Rivers

 

[robertmrivers]

If the lean was eliminated, in my opinion, it was for aesthetic reasons. In Japan, posture is very important. Thus, many Shotokan practitioners keep their back straight. It is not to say they do not hit hard (believe me they do!) but they could harder by leaning and doing a few other things with their stance...

Rob Rivers

 

[The Kai]

I have never studied Shotokan, have been hit by a few of them tho', but fromn what i have read they think that keeping a straight spine helps protect the spine. I do not know if this was the original intent or Reverse engineering to explain the difference

 

[Kosokun]

Rob,

As you're undoubtedly aware, Shotokan isn't the only Japanese style or group that keeps their back relatively perpendicular to the ground. The various shito ryu groups, including the large Motobu Ha factions in the US, do as well.


Wado leans forward in their junzuki dachi, but have their spines upright elsewhere. You can see it in the wado version of Seishan.

In trying to recall watching the kata of the US Members of the Shorinkan (Shuguro Nakazato's group) I don't recall them leaning forward at the waist.

As a yondan, I trained in kobudo with a fellow who was also a senior instructor in matsubayashi shorin ryu. We trained karate together, too, and we kept our backs straight.

I recall that the San Diego Ryuei Ryu group keeps their back stright and I don't recall seeing Sakumoto leaning, either. The Ryuei Ryu kata that I know, I came to via Hayashi-ha. Backs straight there, too.

So, I don't think it's a "Japanese thing", as a lot of the Okinawan styles or Okinawa influenced styles (like Motobu Ha and Hayashi Ha) also keep their backs stright.


**Warning: SWAG's to follow***
As to reasons why the spine's erect, perhaps it's the influence of the sword. My experience, thus far, is that one's spine is erect in nukitsuke and kiri oroshi.

It could also be the influence of jyu kumite. I find that if I lean into a punch and I've not dropped my opponent, it's difficult to avoid his counterpunch. With my back straight, I can deliver sufficient horspower to the target and, should my technique fail, I can still get out and avoid the counter strike.

Might it also be the influence of Asian medicine and concepts of ki? My tai chi instr's have always taught to keep the spine upright and the shoulders down to keep the qi paths open and unblocked.

Sure, esthetics can figure in, too.

Or some combination of these.

Or, perhaps the upright back is the rule and the lean is the exception in Okinawan and Japanese karate.


Rob

If the lean was eliminated, in my opinion, it was for aesthetic reasons. In Japan, posture is very important. Thus, many Shotokan practitioners keep their back straight. It is not to say they do not hit hard (believe me they do!) but they could harder by leaning and doing a few other things with their stance...

Rob Rivers

 

[The Kai]

There is a relatively new book outthere that the author details the lean (among other things) as the secret to power. I wouls also not be a big fan of leaning in while sparrring

 

[Makalakumu]

This discussion is absolutely fantastic. I feel really good about our community on MT when we can bring so many diverse styles to together and discuss our differences so civilly...and have everyone listen to each other.

In TSD chun gul jaseh means front stance. I need to go back to the gm's book to find the original translation, so that will have to wait. When we do front stance, we are taught to keep our back straight...with a caveat. My teacher taught us keep it bowed so that when we punch, the physics of the force involved and the anatomy of the body transfer down to the feet.

This is so hard to talk about without being able to show it, so here it goes...

On your first class in TSD, one is taught how to stand in a position called the five bows. This is a natural curving postion of the limbs and back that takes very little energy to maintain. It also naturally articulates the body so that there is a connection to the spine. When we step into front stance, this posture is maintained with the back, the arms and the neck. And when we punch, the force of that punch transfers directly through the arm, into the spine, and into the rooted feet. Using these mechanics, we are able to strike incredibly hard.

There is so much more that we learn from front stance. The intermediate postions of the hands, the footwork in the feet, the generation of power in the hips, etc...

The bottom line is that Hwang Kee, when he founded our art, drew deeply from the physical and anatomical sciences and eastern philosophy. Our neh-gung (spirit) is grounded in our weh-gung (physical).

upnorthkyosa

 

[robertmrivers]

Good Stuff

We are now starting to get more technical which is great.

1. Many people straighten their backs as they are punching. If you do this your power goes backwards. Therefore when you practice kata, you lean slightly forward.

2. Naturally different styles are going to have different takes on it. However, watching a Shito Ryu practitioner (especially Motobu ha, of which I am a 5th degree) or a Shorin kan practitioner (Kuniba, Motobu ha, studied under Chibana...Nakazato's teacher) is not the same as doing it. What you may not notice is that the stances themselves are more upright, the feet not as deep. Remember, the lean is going to follow (roughly speaking) the angle of the back leg. So if the stance is more upright, the angle in the back leg is going to be shallower...in turn making the "lean" less noticable. But, believe me, they are leaning into the punch. You of course know the Hayashi link and the Motobu ha link... I lean into my punch.

3. You would never lean into someone's attack...you lean into the strike...and please don't over-exaggerate the word lean. It simply means pressure forward and do not snap your body upright when you strike.

4. I study Iaido, my Sensei is in Japan. We lean when we cut. Kendo doesn't as it is "sport". Some Iaido styles don't...our's does. It is called "kireru iai"...or cutting iai. If you do not pressure in, you have no advantage and it leaves your opponent open to come in on you.
5. I do the Wado Seisan...and I know the lean you speak of...and you REALLY Lean...but the application warrants it. It is not a simple punch to the chest...
6. I have seen Sakumoto Sensei's Anan...for example on the shoto uchi, (palm heel) and he does not have his back perfectly straight...Ryuei Ryu stances are also A: shorter which changes the angle in the back leg and the angle in the back and B: the shoto uchi is off of the back leg which changes the dynamic of it a bit as well...

As always, some things that are said on a forum get spun out of control... Here is my point...

When you see many people perform a lunging punch in a kata that uses a forward stance, the moment before impact or "snap" their back snaps up straight and often times needs to move backwards to achieve this erect posture.

Don't get the protractors out

I am just saying keep the pressure forward and hit with your whole body. If you are erect or moving back...you are not hitting with your body.

Incidently, our Naihanchi leans forward as well...which sounds silly because the kata goes side to side. But the truth is in the application.

Hope this clears things up... unfortunately, ultimately, it not cut and dry...lean or don't lean...I am speaking of a general practice...

Best

Rob Rivers

 

[Flying Crane]

Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.

geeze. some people just have no social grace...

 

[The Kai]

In regards to the lean
On a stepping punch what about rotation?
UpNorth Kyosa gave the paramerters of thier front stance, however stances and punchs are not static but dynamic

 

[Makalakumu]

In regards to the lean
On a stepping punch what about rotation?
UpNorth Kyosa gave the paramerters of thier front stance, however stances and punchs are not static but dynamic

When we do our basic techniques, we keep in mind the principle of tension/relaxation. (There is a Korean term for this, but I'll forgo it for now) Our intermediate postions are fluid, mobile, and dynamic. Our root and articulation is shifting and adaptable. When we strike there is an explosive moment of root that whips our bodies into a brief moment of tension. Our punches are like an iron ball on a chain. "POW!" and relax.

All of this flows from our feet, up through the movement of our hips, and into our extemities.

 

[The Kai]

And yet there is a tendency to plant our heel when punching, if we punch to shift weight through a target should we not roll onto the ball of the back foot (ala boxing). Relaxing through a punch it would make more sense to roll up on the foot! yes or no?
I apologize if we are drifting a tad

Thnks
Todd
BTW Upnorth Dude great thread