Pinan to Pyung Ahn

[oldnewbie]

Good point about the stances. My system coming orginally from the Okinawan traditions uses stances that are very high. It is almost like a walking stance. It is for increased movement.

I was taught low stances in katas, but high stances when sparring.. that was difficult to grasp. Then I would see similar kata with high stances, and would scratch my head?

 

[DavidCC]

Talking about any kind of comparison between the Korean bastardization of Pinan kata and the Okinawan versions is silly. They are not even close to the same kata. As the Koreans have done in all the Okinawan kata they borrowed, they have changed techniques and added techniques to suit them, they run the kata like stiff robots with no fluidity and no understanding, and have some ridiculous penchant for high kicks. Just consider them totally different kata and move on.

Good to have you back Gene, I, for one, missed your unique take on things

 

[Gene Williams]

Good to have you back Gene, I, for one, missed your unique take on things

My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn. Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.
As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count. There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period. There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan. As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly. Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used. These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately. Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu). I'm not sure what the Korean folks are doing, but it is a very poor imitation. I have been to the websites of several "35th degree TSD and TKD Great Grand Super Duper Heavy Hung Red and Gold Belt On The Boat First Degree Off The Boat Ninth Degree Universal Cosmic WhupAss Masters" and watched them do the kata and they still look stiff and funny...sort of like they don't know what the Hell they are doing. Anyway, that is my take on it.

 

[The Kai]

They might look odd to you because, you don't know what they are doing. It is always easy to judge from your own perspective

 

[DavidCC]

My take is not "unique."

Sorry, you are correct, I think it is more of your presentation that is special

The style I study uses the pinan series and so I am always interested in their history and evolution. Do you know where I can see video of the different okinawan styles' versions? I saw a TSD version of the first pinan, it was IDENTICAL to what we do (as far as the stepping and punching anyway).

 

[Gene Williams]

Dave, Go to www.shitokai.com. They have decent videos of the Shito ryu Pinan kata. Not exactly as we do them in Motobu ha, but close enough. Scroll down to cyber academy and kata videos. Gene PS They are doing them slowly so students can follow, but you can see the moves, the stances, and the blocks, etc. very well. They are normally done with a little more speed and rhythm than this.

 

[Gene Williams]

They might look odd to you because, you don't know what they are doing. It is always easy to judge from your own perspective

I know they are not doing Pinan kata. I don't care what else they are doing.

 

[Makalakumu]

My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn.

Thanks for the history. Are you sure that "channan" is lost though? I worked out with a Chinese Kempo stylist who claimed that he practiced that form.

Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.

I've trained in both TSD and Shotokan and from my experience, I immediately knew that both forms were similar. In fact, many parts were indistinguishable. The biggest difference was in how TSD generated power. There is more emphasis on hip rotation and body snap.

As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count.

Do beginning students in okinawan karate count when practicing kata? Could you elaborate on this? Fluidity in TSD is defined as Sun Suc Mi or Speed/Line/Beauty and even this is rather subjective. Yet, what we are looking for is proper speed of techniques, correct alignment, and beautiful flow.

There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period.

The only hyung we practice that has high kicks is pyung ahn sam dan (pinan sandan) and those are the outside inside crescent kicks. This kick can easily be thrown lower and the application resulting is pretty sweet.

There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan.

Why are there no side kicks in okinawan pinan's? I like the joint locking low side kick applications that come out of the kata that we practice.

As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly..

I would have to agree with you here.

Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used.

Could you elaborate on some details? Perhaps describe it in a general way so that I could understand and maybe compare?

These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately.

Right. And that is why I value your opinion. I wish I could just show you how I practice them and get your take...

Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu)..

Earlier we discussed the difference in the names Pinan to Pyung Ahn, and what each meant. Could you give us a good working definition for Pinan?

I'm not sure what the Korean folks are doing, but it is a very poor imitation. I have been to the websites of several "35th degree TSD and TKD Great Grand Super Duper Heavy Hung Red and Gold Belt On The Boat First Degree Off The Boat Ninth Degree Universal Cosmic WhupAss Masters" and watched them do the kata and they still look stiff and funny...sort of like they don't know what the Hell they are doing. Anyway, that is my take on it.

Hopefully, via this thread, we can all understand better where we are coming from.

 

[Michael Billings]

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful of others. Racial slurs and negative generalizations about other styles will not be tolerated. This will be the only warning regarding this.

-Michael Billings
-MT Asst. Administrator-

 

[Gene Williams]

Why does a mod feel the need to jump in here? I have seen no racial slurs. You cannot discuss a broad range of martial arts without generalizations...as long as you realize there are exceptions. Calm down.

 

[Gene Williams]

Thanks for the history. Are you sure that "channan" is lost though? I worked out with a Chinese Kempo stylist who claimed that he practiced that form.



I've trained in both TSD and Shotokan and from my experience, I immediately knew that both forms were similar. In fact, many parts were indistinguishable. The biggest difference was in how TSD generated power. There is more emphasis on hip rotation and body snap.



Do beginning students in okinawan karate count when practicing kata? Could you elaborate on this? Fluidity in TSD is defined as Sun Suc Mi or Speed/Line/Beauty and even this is rather subjective. Yet, what we are looking for is proper speed of techniques, correct alignment, and beautiful flow.



The only hyung we practice that has high kicks is pyung ahn sam dan (pinan sandan) and those are the outside inside crescent kicks. This kick can easily be thrown lower and the application resulting is pretty sweet.



Why are there no side kicks in okinawan pinan's? I like the joint locking low side kick applications that come out of the kata that we practice.



I would have to agree with you here.



Could you elaborate on some details? Perhaps describe it in a general way so that I could understand and maybe compare?



Right. And that is why I value your opinion. I wish I could just show you how I practice them and get your take...



Earlier we discussed the difference in the names Pinan to Pyung Ahn, and what each meant. Could you give us a good working definition for Pinan?



Hopefully, via this thread, we can all understand better where we are coming from.

John, Yes, channan is lost. Every few years some wannabee comes up with the idea that he has found the "lost kata channan" and sets forth on some mish mash about it. Sort of like the Holy Grail. There is no magic lost kata that will suddenly give you secret techniques or magic powers. That comes from hard work and years in the arts...period. The channan discussion has been done on other forums, too. It is an empty chase.
Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind."
No, Okinawan karate beginners do not "count." At least, they are not taught to count. The sensei may count out loud as the group is doing kata, but you should not count moves. We do not put so much emphasis on the number of moves in a kata. It tends to fragment the kata and cause your mind to "stop." It is better to just learn the moves in phases or sequences. This better allows the student to let the moves flow together later on.

 

[Makalakumu]

John, Yes, channan is lost. Every few years some wannabee comes up with the idea that he has found the "lost kata channan" and sets forth on some mish mash about it. Sort of like the Holy Grail. There is no magic lost kata that will suddenly give you secret techniques or magic powers. That comes from hard work and years in the arts...period. The channan discussion has been done on other forums, too. It is an empty chase.
Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind."
No, Okinawan karate beginners do not "count." At least, they are not taught to count. The sensei may count out loud as the group is doing kata, but you should not count moves. We do not put so much emphasis on the number of moves in a kata. It tends to fragment the kata and cause your mind to "stop." It is better to just learn the moves in phases or sequences. This better allows the student to let the moves flow together later on.

Thank you for your reply. Here are a couple of thoughts and a couple more questions...

1. Pyung Ahn, in our art, describes a mindset that one learns from the practice of these forms. Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence. When we practice these forms we attempt to balance the two concepts, the thought being that if one is too peaceful, one becomes effete and passive and if one becomes to confident, one becomes to aggressive and over-confident.

How does this differ from the Okinawan concept of Pinan?

2. In Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (pinan yondan), there is a segment where the tori draws uki toward him with a joint lock right after elbowing him in the face. Then we slam a low side kick into uki's closest knee. There are lots of variations to this application and it seems very effective to me.

I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms? What are they replaced with?

3. How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?

 

[Gene Williams]

Thank you for your reply. Here are a couple of thoughts and a couple more questions...

1. Pyung Ahn, in our art, describes a mindset that one learns from the practice of these forms. Pyung Ahn means Peaceful Confidence. When we practice these forms we attempt to balance the two concepts, the thought being that if one is too peaceful, one becomes effete and passive and if one becomes to confident, one becomes to aggressive and over-confident.

How does this differ from the Okinawan concept of Pinan?

2. In Pyung Ahn Sa Dan (pinan yondan), there is a segment where the tori draws uki toward him with a joint lock right after elbowing him in the face. Then we slam a low side kick into uki's closest knee. There are lots of variations to this application and it seems very effective to me.

I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms? What are they replaced with?

3. How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?

1.) Peaceful Mind is often explained to mean that these five kata provide you with all the karate you need to defend yourself. I have also heard it explained as meaning you should perform them with a peaceful mind, or that the performance of them will create a peaceful mind. I'm not sure anyone knows what Itosu's original intent for the name was (but just as sure as I say that, 10 soke's will jump in and say they have the true original meaning).

2. The kicks in the Okinawan versions are front kicks (snap and thrust), and strikes with the knees. There are some stamping kicks in the bunkai. I think Shotokan does middle level side kicks in Pinan Yondan, but Okinawan karate does not. We consider side kick as being used primarily to the knees. There are a few practitioners who will kick floating rib high with it, but I don't believe that is its purpose. I fuss at my students for kicking to the body with it.

3. The breathing in Pinan is natural and from the hara. Exhale on execution and inhale during transition or on loading the technique. Pinan breathing is "light" compared to some of the other kata. At senior levels, block and punch may come in one exhalation, and two consecutive punches may come in one breath. In Shito ryu, there are a couple of places where there is a slight forced exhalation, but nothing like in Goju ryu.

I have often told my students that the 5 Pinan kata, done well and with a clear understanding of applications, is shodan level karate. Of course, there are other required kata for shodan, but the Pinan have a lot to teach and you never quit doing them. I do the Pinan every time I train, and I've been doing them for 35 years.

 

[Kosokun]

Pinan is always translated as "Peaceful Mind."

I like the tranlation, "Tranquility" for Pinan/heian.

Rob

Nice to see you here, Gene!

Rob

 

[Kosokun]

Gene's take on the history of the Pinan as well as his comments on the kicks in the Pinan kata are right on.

Pinans aren't Chinese, they're Okinawan, created by Itosu. According to Kenzo Mabuni, they were developed from Kosokun/Kushanku. Channan is indeed lost to the sands of time.

Rob

My take is not "unique." I think you will find that many Okinawan karateka feel the same way. As for specific differences, origins, etc. as was asked about earlier, the Pinan were created by Ankoh Itosu when he used the kata Kosokun (Kushanku) and a now lost kata called "Channan" to develop them. The Pinan did not exist in China, although many Okinawan kata did develop from Chinese influences. So, the Pinan are unique Okinawan kata. Funakoshi took them to Japan and what later became Shotokan called them Heian and switched the order of Pinan Shodan and Nidan because he felt that Nidan was easier to learn. Shotokan actually does them a bit differently from Shorin ryu or Shito ryu, but they are recognizably the same kata. Shotokan introduced their back stance and placed a deal more emphasis on the straight ahead, linear, one strong powerful punch philosophy. Shotokan uses very few neko ashi dachi (cat stance) and very few sanchin stances. The Okinawan versions are full of these stances, which changes the flow and intent of the kata. So, even though Shotokan is doing what are recognizably Pinan kata, they are different.
As to Korean versions: I hear TKD and TSD students talk a lot about fluidity, but I think they must mean that they can do the kata fast and without having to count. There is a bit more to it than that. There are no high kicks in the Okinawan Pinan kata...period. There are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions, either, especially not head high side kicks. I have seen versions of Pinan with crescent kicks in Pinan Sandan, but mostly that is Shotokan. As for "inside out" crescent kicks, that is silly. Okinawans punch differently, they breathe differently (many TKD and TSD students hold their breath), and they have a completely different view of how one develops power and when it is used. These are things that a senior in Okinawan karateka can spot immediately. Most of us know very well the differences between the Shotokan versions and the Shorin versions and the Shito ryu versions. We appreciate the differences and understand the historical rerasons for them...but, the philosophy of the kata is the same (especially among the Okinawan ryu).

 

[Kosokun]

I'm curious as to why there are no side kicks in the Okinawan versions of the forms? What are they replaced with?

They weren't replaced with anything. The kicks weren't there in the first place. The side kicks, like the 7th movement in Pinan Shodan or the 6th movement of Pinan Yondan are more like front kicks done to the side.

3. How would you generally describe the breathing done in the pinan kata?

Natural. Exhale when exerting.

Rob

 

[Kosokun]

This is a common cliche, yet other than sanchin, I've yet to see in my 35 years in the MA any Chinese form that corresponds to any in the traditional Okinawan/Japanese karate syllabus.

The Pinans, however, were created by Itosu Ankoh around 1905. They're not Chinese forms or adaptations of Chinese forms.

Rob

Yup. The Okinawan versions themselves are largely adapted versions of the Chinese forms--some so changed it can be hard to see the connection, others still very similar.

 

[Kosokun]

Shitokai.com is an excellent site.
Another site that has the Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu versions of the Pinan and other kata is here. http://web1.38231.vs.webtropia.com/indexen.html

Rob

Dave, Go to www.shitokai.com. They have decent videos of the Shito ryu Pinan kata. Not exactly as we do them in Motobu ha, but close enough. Scroll down to cyber academy and kata videos. Gene PS They are doing them slowly so students can follow, but you can see the moves, the stances, and the blocks, etc. very well. They are normally done with a little more speed and rhythm than this.

 

[Makalakumu]

They weren't replaced with anything. The kicks weren't there in the first place. The side kicks, like the 7th movement in Pinan Shodan or the 6th movement of Pinan Yondan are more like front kicks done to the side.

I saw that in the video that Gene posted. Why is it done this way? Wouldn't a low side kick perform a similar function in bunkai?

 

[Kosokun]

My guess, since I didn't know Itosu personally, (Gene might, as he's that old. :-D ) is the intended target is different. With a kick int he manner that I described, the target is quite flexible. That is, one can kick inside the knee, the knee itself, the groin, the inside of the leg, whichever presents itself. A low side kick is largely limited to the inside or outside aspects of the knee.

Rob

I saw that in the video that Gene posted. Why is it done this way? Wouldn't a low side kick perform a similar function in bunkai?