Passai version

ninjanoir78

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Hi, do you know why tawada version ( chibana) is called matsumura no passai and the matsumura passai from hohan soken ( orthodox shorin ryu) has the same name but its really not the same kata.. i guess the one from soken is the real passai from bushi matsumura, cause it is the family style.. do you have some infos ?


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dancingalone

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Without getting into karate lineage wars and who 'inherited the true way', I understand them to be the same kata passed down through different students which account for the minor differences.

Chibana Passai Dai = Matsumura Sokon -> Tawada Shinwazu -> Chibana Chosin
Matsumura Seito Passai = Matsumura Sokon -> Matsumura Nabe -> Soken Hohan

I do not study either kata myself so take this with a healthy amount of skepticism.
 

Makalakumu

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Just so people can see what is being discussed...

Chibana No Passai


Matsumura Seito Passai

 
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twendkata71

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Perhaps the kata was changed by Itosu before Chibanna learned it. As in most cases, the same kata is different from teacher to teacher, each putting their own spin on the kata. Maybe the Soken version is more in line with the way that Matsumura originally taught it. I can't say for sure. Soken was quite old when he returned to Okinawa and started teaching. Many times sensei will perform the kata differently when they get older,mainly because of the body changes, so they may eliminate or change movements so that if fits their body better. Some learn more of the hidden parts of the kata and teach the kata to show those hidden parts. In other instances they do not know or did not learn the hidden parts of the kata, so they change the kata to make more sense of the movements(angles of the strikes, vital point targets,etc.). I personally have not learned these versions of the kata, so I can not say for sure. Good question though.
 

Ray B

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I don't know if you guys have noticed this but, on that Seito clip, there are two versions of Passai being performed.
The first one has a vague similarity to Pasai Guwa and the second (starting at 0.36) starts out like Tomari
no Passai but ends up like Matsumura/Tawada no Passai. Chibana learned from Tawada with Itosu's endorsement
stating that Tawada's Passai was Matsumura's. This is when Guwa was retired and the designation of Passai sho
went to Itosu's Passai and Tawada's became dai. (originally guwa was sho and Itosu's was dai)
 
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