Kata Information

[dlcox]

Looking for background information on Chonan Kata (Eldest Son?). It was supposed to have been a kata passed on from Kitagawa, a student of Matsumura of Shorin Ryu. In description it is liked a stripped down simplified version of Naihanchi Kata, which it is said to be a predecessor of. Also looking for information on two other kata called San Jin (?) and Ien Hou (?), also said to come from Kitagawa. San Jin (3 Arrows, 3 Battles?) is a tension kata and very much like Sanchin but again very stripped down and simplified. Ien Hou (?) is a larger version of San Jin and contains arm circling with tension. All three kata were said to be taught to Kitagawa by Matsumura and have a bit of White Crane flavor to them. Kitagawa taught Shintani Masaru. Shintani passed these on to my teacher. Anymore information anyone has on these kata would be much appreciated, especially translations (with kanji). All three kata definitely belong to the same style and follow a similar theory and progression of Fujian White Crane. In case if anyone is wondering, yes I did talk with a few Wado Kai people but they had no more information than what I have presented.

 

[hoshin1600]

From my own perspective and opinion. The San Jin kata you are referring to would most likely be a variation of sanchin. There are many variations. Again my opinion would be that if matsumura sokon knew a kata called sanchin it would have been the same kata practiced elsewhere on Okinawa and in china. From the very small samples I have seen of shorin sanchin it appears to be heavily influenced by Miyagi of goju ryu. Which indicates to me a more modern "borrowing" of the kata into the shorin systems.
I am not familiar with the other topics you mentioned

 

[dlcox]

From my own perspective and opinion. The San Jin kata you are referring to would most likely be a variation of sanchin. There are many variations. Again my opinion would be that if matsumura sokon knew a kata called sanchin it would have been the same kata practiced elsewhere on Okinawa and in china. From the very small samples I have seen of shorin sanchin it appears to be heavily influenced by Miyagi of goju ryu. Which indicates to me a more modern "borrowing" of the kata into the shorin systems.
I am not familiar with the other topics you mentioned

Thank you for the reply. I agree that it is most likely a version of Sanchin, though it looks nothing like the Miyagi version. It is 3 steps 5 movements and appears to me based on a version of Fujian Sanchin called 3 Arrows. From the story I was told all 3 kata were supposed to have been old Shorin kata that were predecessors to Sanchin & Naihanchi. I have found very little evidence outside of a supposed conversation between Itosu and a student on the old Naihanchi kata. In the story the returning student sees new students practicing a kata similar to Chonan. The student inquires & Itosu states that Chonan was the old version and that Naihanchi is the improved version. How much truth there is to this I don't know, but these kata have a very Shorin flavor as compared to Tomari or Naha. From what little I was told they were fundamental exercises of Sokon Matsumura's style, though I can find no evidence to support this. Good simple foundation kata. There are some YouTube videos of Ienhou & Chonan but are not quite the same as the ones I learned, no Sanjin and slightly different history for them. Thanks again, and if anyone has any info on Kitagawa that would be great.

 

[TimoS]

From the very small samples I have seen of shorin sanchin it appears to be heavily influenced by Miyagi of goju ryu.

Sanchin is a rare kata in Shorin ryu. I don't know for certain of any that practices it, although I think that Eizo Shimabukuro's style does it and he got that from his brother Tatsuo (who, in turn, got it from Miyagi, I think)

 

[hoshin1600]

this is the only youtube video i could find.

there are two tell tale signs that this version comes from Chojun Miyagi. one is the foot work and arm positions during the turn. second is the ending of the kata where the open palms cross infront of the groin.

 

[TimoS]

There are some YouTube videos of Ienhou & Chonan

I can find some videos of this Chonan, but none of Ienhou

 

[TimoS]

this is the only youtube video i could find.

He is apparently a Shobayshi instructor so that puts him in Eizo Shimabukuro's lineage

 

[hoshin1600]

Sanchin is a rare kata in Shorin ryu. I don't know for certain of any that practices it, although I think that Eizo Shimabukuro's style does it and he got that from his brother Tatsuo (who, in turn, got it from Miyagi, I think)

Shimabukuro Eizo supposedly studied under Miyagi directly.

 

[hoshin1600]

Dlcox.. you said your sanjin kata has 5 movements can you describe them?

 

[K-man]

this is the only youtube video i could find.

there are two tell tale signs that this version comes from Chojun Miyagi. one is the foot work and arm positions during the turn. second is the ending of the kata where the open palms cross infront of the groin.

This version is closer to the Higaonna version. Miyagi version doesn't have turns, Higaonna version does. However the hand movements are very different to Goju. Maybe the skeleton of Higaonna sanchin forms the base for this version.

 

[dlcox]

Dlcox.. you said your sanjin kata has 5 movements can you describe them?

I'll try. It starts with left foot nameashi with downward cross block out to sanchin dachi. Double punches, left on top. Right step into sanchin dachi, double punch, right on top. Right leg step back into left sanchin dachi, double punch left on top. Left leg nameashi with downward cross block. Crossed hands punch. Pull, End.

 

[dlcox]

This version is closer to the Higaonna version. Miyagi version doesn't have turns, Higaonna version does. However the hand movements are very different to Goju. Maybe the skeleton of Higaonna sanchin forms the base for this version.

Ienhou is similar to this, but not as complex & no turns.

 

[hoshin1600]

This version is closer to the Higaonna version. Miyagi version doesn't have turns, Higaonna version does. However the hand movements are very different to Goju. Maybe the skeleton of Higaonna sanchin forms the base for this version.

of course your right. however Miyagi did teach Higaonna's version for quite some time before it fell out of favor.
so to clarify i wasnt saying this is the Miyagi Goju sanchin but rather a version that has his finger prints on it. my impression is that it is somewhere in between Higaonna and Miyagi.

but to the OP's original question this is not the same version he is looking for but sounds to me closely related.

 

[hoshin1600]

I'll try. It starts with left foot nameashi with downward cross block out to sanchin dachi. Double punches, left on top. Right step into sanchin dachi, double punch, right on top. Right leg step back into left sanchin dachi, double punch left on top. Left leg nameashi with downward cross block. Crossed hands punch. Pull, End.

when you say "double punch" am i correct in assuming that you mean both hands punch at the same time, one hand aimed high at the face(palm down) and other aimed lower around the groin level(palm up). both on the center line of the body?

 

[dlcox]

when you say "double punch" am i correct in assuming that you mean both hands punch at the same time, one hand aimed high at the face(palm down) and other aimed lower around the groin level(palm up). both on the center line of the body?

Correct, I don't know the Japanese terminology. I'm really a Gong Fu guy, that studied Karate briefly many years ago.

 

[dlcox]

when you say "double punch" am i correct in assuming that you mean both hands punch at the same time, one hand aimed high at the face(palm down) and other aimed lower around the groin level(palm up). both on the center line of the body?

Sorry, I missed the part about the hand position. Both hands punch at the same time from the center but are in vertical fist position, like Isshin Ryu.

 

[K-man]

Correct, I don't know the Japanese terminology. I'm really a Gong Fu guy, that studied Karate briefly many years ago.

'Morote Tsuki' meaning double punch.

 

[punisher73]

The Higoanna version and the Uechi version of Sanchin seem to have the same "skeleton", although Uechi still utilizes the open hands and different breathing style. Miyagi took out the turns and added the two steps back since that was never practiced in any of the katas.

I'm wondering if your "Chonan" kata is the same as "Channan". This kata is apparantly a "lost" kata that Itosu was involved in. If you google it, you will find two theories. First, that it was a specific kata that has been lost through the years. Many people claim to have it or teach it, but there is no historical kata passed on that we have by this name. The second theory is that Itosu used the name "Channan" as a working name for his Pinan kata before finalizing them. Reference to this theory is from Choki Motobu who saw a student performing the Pinan katas and Motobu said it looked like "Channan". Here is the quote:

I visited him [Itosu] one day at his home near the school, where we sat talking about the martial arts and current affairs. While I was there, 2-3 students also dropped by and sat talking with us. Itosu Sensei turned to the students and said 'show us a kata.' The kata that they performed was very similar to the Channan kata that I knew [from studying with Itosu], but there were some differences also. Upon asking the student what the kata was, he replied 'It is Pinan no Kata.' The students left shortly after that, upon which I turned to Itosu Sensei and said 'I learned a kata called Channan, but the kata that those students just performed now was different. What is going on?' Itosu Sensei replied 'Yes, the kata is slightly different, but the kata that you just saw is the kata that I have decided upon. The students all told me that the name Pinan is better, so I went along with the opinions of the young people.' These kata, which were developed by Itosu Sensei, underwent change even during his own lifetime."

 

[hoshin1600]

The Higoanna version and the Uechi version of Sanchin seem to have the same "skeleton", although Uechi still utilizes the open hands and different breathing style. Miyagi took out the turns and added the two steps back since that was never practiced in any of the katas.

from my understanding ....
Morio Higaonna (no relation) has said that the original goju sanchin that Miyagi studied under Kanryo Higaonna had the turns and used open hand strikes that were executed quickly. the breathing was also done quickly with the exhalation matching the strike. "the breath would blow out a candle or powder from the hand" (the goju sanchin that is rarely seen today that still use the turns while it may be called the "HIgaonna" version is really the first version that Miyagi taught, and in all likely hood is different that what Kanryo Higaonna actually did himself)
Chojun Miyagi traveled to China to try and find Higaonna's teacher Ryu ru Ko. while he did not find him, he must have been exposed to the many variations of sanchin that exist in Fujian province. most sanchin kata passed down in China use the backwards stepping. it is probable that upon his return he decided to encorporate the backwards steps that are used in other versions.

 

[dlcox]

The Higoanna version and the Uechi version of Sanchin seem to have the same "skeleton", although Uechi still utilizes the open hands and different breathing style. Miyagi took out the turns and added the two steps back since that was never practiced in any of the katas.

I'm wondering if your "Chonan" kata is the same as "Channan". This kata is apparantly a "lost" kata that Itosu was involved in. If you google it, you will find two theories. First, that it was a specific kata that has been lost through the years. Many people claim to have it or teach it, but there is no historical kata passed on that we have by this name. The second theory is that Itosu used the name "Channan" as a working name for his Pinan kata before finalizing them. Reference to this theory is from Choki Motobu who saw a student performing the Pinan katas and Motobu said it looked like "Channan". Here is the quote:

No it is definitely nothing like the Pinan Kata. It is like a simpler version of Naihanchi Shodan.