Pan Gai Noon - dead martial art?

Seizan

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Now on to the second generation of UechiRyu... Bold type emphasis is my own, pertinent to the discussion.

*****
Extract from the recently-published book Okinawa Karate The Real Truth Pages 21 and 22, interview with Takamiyagi Shigeru Sensei, Okikukai ShoheiRyu. Bracketed phrases are my explanations or further details.


Originally, UechiRyu Sanchin and GojuRyu Sanchin were the same. However, 2nd generation Uechi Kanei Sensei modified the techniques [of his fathers system] to be suitable [goriteki logical, rational, appropriate] for Japanese people in a practical manner. Among the kenpo techniques from China there were many things that practically speaking could not be used for Japanese people so Kanei Sensei deleted all of those [Kanei Sensei deleted all those techniques from the system]. Only keri remains from Chuugoku kenpo, but sokutei was not used. So the useful things [techniques that could be used by Japanese people] remained but the non-useful things [Chinese-style techniques not easily learned or used] were deleted.
 

Seizan

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Several years ago I participated in a UechiRyu forums discussion about Kanbun Sensei's studies in China, and what he passed on to us through Toyama Sensei. Is it permitted to post the link to that discussion from another forums? It ended up being 9 pages long, and I'd hate to have to repeat all that info and the great comments...
 
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Doomx2001

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“Originally, UechiRyu Sanchin and GojuRyu Sanchin were the same. However, 2nd generation Uechi Kanei Sensei modified the techniques [of his father’s system] to be suitable [“goriteki” – logical, rational, appropriate] for Japanese people in a practical manner. Among the kenpo techniques from China there were many things that practically speaking could not be used for Japanese people so Kanei Sensei deleted all of those [Kanei Sensei deleted all those techniques from the system]. Only keri remains from Chuugoku kenpo, but sokutei was not used. So the useful things [techniques that could be used by Japanese people] remained but the non-useful things [Chinese-style techniques not easily learned or used] were deleted.”

This is a stupid question, but what is 'sokutei' and are there any online video references to it? What techniques were modified? Thanks again Seizan for all your input.
 

Seizan

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Sokutei is a kick with the bottom of the foot, corresponding with the palm of the hand. Google "sokutei" and hit "Images", and you'll come up with a few photos and examples.

Regarding which techniques were changed, that would take a lesson in the dojo... Much philosophy was omitted and several techniques were changed due to reasons I really can't go into here.
 

punisher73

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Actually, sokutei is the bottom part of the foot. Sokutei geri is the kick. My bad.

Dumb question, how does "sokutei" differ from "kakato"? "Kakato means "heel" I know, is "sokutei" the whole bottom of the foot or the arch part? I know it was mentioned like the palm, going with that analogy is it the center of the palm vs. the bottom of the palm referred to as a "heel palm"?

Also, I don't believe there are any rules against linking to a different discussion. I would love to read it.
 

clfsean

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There are some rules about cross linking to other forums, but I think this would be ok given context & content.

Link away!!
 

clfsean

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And the move made it even better...because they at least do not speak that Cantonese Devil talk :D

Don't hate... besides in Fujian they have their own dialects & language. He wouldn't have been around the language of the blessed patriots. :salute:
 

Xue Sheng

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Don't hate... besides in Fujian they have their own dialects & language. He wouldn't have been around the language of the blessed patriots. :salute:


I know Fujian has its own rather hard to understand dialect, even for those that speak "true" Chinese, the language of the chosen (Mandarin), I was just happy it got out of Fujian to Japan before the Devil talkers got a hold of it:D
 

punisher73

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Isn't kakatogeri more like an axe-kick? As I understood it, sokuteigeri would look more like a maegeri. I don't practice either kick, so I'm just guessing

Our kicks are just named in english with a descriptor/body part (ball kick, heel thrust, etc.) so I didn't know the body part name and how it was named in japanese. I looked it up and the kakato geri is like an axe kick and a heel thrust (in japanese) is named for the direction and then "kekomi" for "thrust". So a mae kekomi is a front thrust, a ushiro kekomi is a rear thrust.
 

Seizan

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Punisher73,

PM for you...

Everyone else,

I can send you the link to the other Uechi forums if you write me privately; I don't want to risk breaking a rule regarding posting links to other forums. That thread hasn't been active since 2006 but it's archived and still available. Anyway, I can be found at my regular e-mail address, which can be found on my website, which can be found in my MartialTalk profile, which can be found... :)

Seizan
 

punisher73

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Hello All,

My student in Scotland posted the kanji, dictionary extracts, my explanation, et al on his site. For those of you still following the thread, here's the link:

http://www.oldstyleuechiryu.com/article_pangainun.html

Pretty much the same text I presented earlier, but at least now you have the kanji etc.

I have come across that website before, off topic a little bit. There is an article on there about Suparenpei, have you seen the version they talked about and if so do you think that it might be similiar to what Uechi would have learned if he had stayed longer?
 

Seizan

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I have seen it several times but there is no way to know for sure that it is the same, or has changed over the course of more than 100 years, or even if it is/was the only Suparinpe form being taught at the time.

The system taught to Kanbun Sensei consisted of three forms specifically Sanchin, Seisan, and Sandairyu. The Suparinpe may not have been of the same system. Perhaps several 108 forms exist today because the systems to which they belonged are preserved (in whole or part). However so far there are no corresponding forms that strongly resemble UechiRyus Sanchin, Seisan, or Sandairyu, though in August 2005, a visiting Chinese stylist demonstrated for me a Dog Style form that resembles Sanchin. The system taught to Kanbun Sensei was apparently preserved only through Kanbun Sensei and his descendent students.

One original Suparinpe taught by Shuu Sensei was shown to Toyama Sensei in the 1970s by two elderly Chinese gentlemen who studied in Kanbun Senseis original dojo in China. The visit by these Chinese gentlemen is known to many who trained in the Futenma Dojo in the early or mid 70's. The dojo in China remained open after Kanbun Sensei left. Shuu Sensei assigned another of his top students to teach there in Kanbun Senseis stead, otherwise Toyama Senseis two elderly visitors would not have been able to perform Suparinpe. They performed in exactly the same manner that Toyama Sensei performs (posture, timing, extensive use of a UechiRyu-like Sanchin stance, large circular blocking movements, etc.). Performed in that manner, many techniques and positions nearly identical to UechiRyu could be seen. But there is still no way to know for sure whether that was the same Suparinpe that Kanbun Sensei would have learned, considering that we find little today that more than slightly resembles UechiRyu.
 
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Doomx2001

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though in August 2005, a visiting Chinese stylist demonstrated for me a Dog Style form that resembles Sanchin.

What was the name of the dog style?
And do you know the names of the two Chinese masters that visited the Uechi ryu dojo?
 

Seizan

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Hi Folks,

Though we had a typhoon more than a week ago, repair crews are still fixing power lines and cables, etc. Consequently, our lines in Nagahama are down since Saturday and may take another day or as long as a week to repair. My response time to the forums and e-mail may be delayed until I have some spare time at school to use the Net to get a message out. Sorry, and I appreciate your patience

Trying to catch up Sokutei is the inside bottom of the foot, like the center of the palm. The heel or butt of the palm would be shotei, corresponding to the kakato or the heel of the foot.

I was not given the name of the dog style from Fuzhou. If I get in touch with that practitioner again, Ill ask for it. The strikes were more like shoken rather than open-hand or full fists; they were slow tension strikes, and the wrist movement twisted the fist after delivery before returning to the Sanchin position. Stance was an hourglass type but wide, and knees were bent giving it a deeper stance than a UechiRyu or GojuRyu.
 
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