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The Palgwae forms are used by a number of different schools, and some of them have changed them. They can do that, because they're not part of a larger organization that defines the forms. Personally, I think if they want to change them, fine. But change the name too. That avoids confusion.I was just curious why the Palgwe forms have changed so much over the years, why they can't just stay the same. It feels like it's ruining the history of Taekwondo. Some of the forms have completely changed in a big way. Just was curious what your thoughts are on this?
This is not right. It isn't even wrong.The history of Taekwondo? I'll tell you the history of Taekwondo.
During WW2, Japan controlled Korea. The Japanese taught the Koreans the martial art of Karate. When the Japanese left, the Koreans took their forms, chopped them up and rearranged them, and came up with their own martial arts such as Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, etc.
Taekwondo was unified into the ITF. Due to political issues, the founder was exiled, and the South Korean government scrambled to create KKW and the WTF so they could have their own organization. A better organization, with blackjack and...nevermind. Anyway, they decided to remake the forms again. So they made the Palgwe forms and very soon after the Taegeuk forms. I imagine they were made parallel with each other, and internal politics are why they switched from one to the next so fast.
If anything, the idea that forms are chopped up and rearranged over time is perfectly consistent with the history of Taekwondo, because that's how they were created in the first place.
It's a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but can you tell me what's not right about it?This is not right. It isn't even wrong.
Incorrect. The various Kwan (which formed in 1945-ish) pretty much all started out teaching Tang Soo Do, because that is the Korean pronunciation of the Japanese characters for Karate-Do. The name taekwondo was proposed during the first unification, but wasn't actually adopted until the second, in 1959.During WW2, Japan controlled Korea. The Japanese taught the Koreans the martial art of Karate. When the Japanese left, the Koreans took their forms, chopped them up and rearranged them, and came up with their own martial arts such as Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, etc.
Incorrect. The Kwan unified, and the first name for that organization was the Korean Taekwondo Association. This later became the Kukkiwon. The ITF wasn't formed until 1966, well after the KTA formed in 1959. Nothing was ever unified into the ITF.Taekwondo was unified into the ITF.
Completely wrong.Due to political issues, the founder was exiled, and the South Korean government scrambled to create KKW and the WTF so they could have their own organization.
Incorrect. Prior to the KTA, the various Kwan taught the Pinan forms - the Shotokan forms they had learned in Japan. In 1965, representatives from six of the nine original Kwan began development of the Palgwae forms. They became the official curriculum in 1967. Their mandate was to create Korean forms, and to do it quickly.A better organization, with blackjack and...nevermind. Anyway, they decided to remake the forms again. So they made the Palgwe forms and very soon after the Taegeuk forms.
You can imagine anything you want, but the records (and the people who were actually there) say differently. The Taegeuks were developed to further separate Korea from Japan and to be more inclusive, in line with the KTA desire to assimilate all schools.I imagine they were made parallel with each other, and internal politics are why they switched from one to the next so fast.
Pretty much everything, actually.It's a little bit tongue-in-cheek, but can you tell me what's not right about it?
I got some details wrong, but the overall story remains the same. Japanese taught the Koreans. Koreans wanted to make things their own so they chopped up the Japanese forms into what we have today.Incorrect. The various Kwan (which formed in 1945-ish) pretty much all started out teaching Tang Soo Do, because that is the Korean pronunciation of the Japanese characters for Karate-Do. The name taekwondo was proposed during the first unification, but wasn't actually adopted until the second, in 1959.
Incorrect. The Kwan unified, and the first name for that organization was the Korean Taekwondo Association. This later became the Kukkiwon. The ITF wasn't formed until 1966, well after the KTA formed in 1959. Nothing was ever unified into the ITF.
Completely wrong.
Incorrect. Prior to the KTA, the various Kwan taught the Pinan forms - the Shotokan forms they had learned in Japan. In 1965, representatives from six of the nine original Kwan began development of the Palgwae forms. They became the official curriculum in 1967. Their mandate was to create Korean forms, and to do it quickly.
The KTA then created another committee to develop the Taegeuk forms, but this time including all nine Kwan. Those were implemented in 1971. Their mandate was to create forms that were more distinctly Korean.
You can imagine anything you want, but the records (and the people who were actually there) say differently. The Taegeuks were developed to further separate Korea from Japan and to be more inclusive, in line with the KTA desire to assimilate all schools.
Pretty much everything, actually.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but like what? Can you expand on that?Pretty much everything, actually.
I did. That would be the part you deleted.I'm not disagreeing with you, but like what? Can you expand on that?
Yeah, everyone knows that TKD is actually an ancient Korean martial art that is well over 2000 years oldCompletely wrong.
It's likely that it's due to a lack of regulation by a larger governing association. The palgwe haven't really be used in Kukki TKD since the taegeuks were created and relatively recently Kukkiwon cracked down on mandating that all Kukkiwon TKD schools only promote students using Taegeuks and stopped accepting palgwe all together.I was just curious why the Palgwe forms have changed so much over the years, why they can't just stay the same. It feels like it's ruining the history of Taekwondo. Some of the forms have completely changed in a big way. Just was curious what your thoughts are on this?
A question or two and a couple of points..................
My hypothesis is that when TKD first came to the US the forms being taught were the original Hyung (karate kata) and the palgwe poomsae. .................................... Being that this happened in the 1970's you can imagine how difficult it would be to get all of those forms taught without the internet and easily available videos. so all these schools just spent years training instructors and students and now have to spend many more trying to learn new forms at a slow pace as they make there way across the ocean. It's a lot of work and a logistical nightmare so instructors decide to just keep the palgwe. .............................
That's just my hypothesis though.
From a Chang Hon / ITF perspective. Perhaps it applies to the Palgwe as well. The form creator had a very specific standard in mind. However, many of the pioneers who learned the "New to them" forms had certain habits from years of training and those habits did not necessarily reflect the creator's standard. The progeny of those pioneers followed their instructor's habits unaware they did not follow the standard. As the creator traveled and taught what he wanted and as his written works became more detailed along with video many who thought they followed the standard he created and were surprised to learn they did not often commented that he changed things. A widespread example of people following certain habits are progeny of He Il Cho, Jhoon Rhee and H U Lee (from the days when he did Chang Hon) who do the pattern system with what I call a "Chung Do Kwan Flavor".
So as the old saying goes- "the shortest pencil is better than the longest memory. " So, you need to find the original authoritative texts from the official person / organization to see if their have in fact been "Changes" or something else like clarifications.
all of the above. I believe the, and correct me if I'm wrong, The first TKD forms separate from karate kata (pinan, naihanchi, etc.) were the Chang Hon series and shortly after the palgwe (because politics and infighting), then because of reasons the Taegeuk were created in the early 70s. I can only imagine how hard it would be to make that transition in the 1960s and 1970's when resources weren't yet so readily available.When you refer to "The original Hyung....) ae you referring to Chang Hon or the Shorin / Shorei / Shotokan forms that pre dated that system?
Correct - The Chang Hon forms were created shortly after the name TK-D. This was taught to the 29th infantry division as General Choi created the forms with input and assistance from various Pioneers, many of whom were CDK products and in his 1965 Book General Choi references and provides examples of the Shorin and Shorei forms. These Chang Hon forms circulated throughout the world as 29th infantry gave demonstrations and often became instructors in other countries. They also proliferated as General Choi traveled and recruited Korean instructors to teach this system with the Jhoon Rhee example being well known.all of the above. I believe the, and correct me if I'm wrong, The first TKD forms separate from karate kata (pinan, naihanchi, etc.) were the Chang Hon series
While I agree in part, there is hard evidence of influence by Chinese Chaun Fa, and that is going pretty far back (1,100's). Think of it this way, the land where Korea sets has been around for millennia, agree? Whether it was called Korea or not, it did exist. There has been occupation by at least three major countries. Japan, lesser China, USSR, and even the US can claim this title in one form or another.Yeah, everyone knows that TKD is actually an ancient Korean martial art that is well over 2000 years old. That one still gets me.