OTM 20: The What If - NOW ONLINE!

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Kenpoists,

The new OTM 20 is now available! For this clip we are proud to feature my instructor, Mr. Zach Whitson, covering the topic of "The What If".

For more information on Mr. Whitson, please visit-
http://www.zachwhitson.com

Hope you enjoy.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
http://www.unitedparkerskenpo.com/Onthemat.html

http://www.unitedparkerskenpo.com/files/On_the_Mat_Session_0020_The_What_If_V2.wmv

 

[Seabrook]

Fellow Kenpoists,

The new OTM 20 is now available! For this clip we are proud to feature my instructor, Mr. Zach Whitson, covering the topic of "The What If".

For more information on Mr. Whitson, please visit-
http://www.zachwhitson.com

Hope you enjoy.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
http://www.unitedparkerskenpo.com/Onthemat.html

http://www.unitedparkerskenpo.com/files/On_the_Mat_Session_0020_The_What_If_V2.wmv

Cool stuff Joshua!

I had the opportunity of working with Zach and few years ago when Huk Planas came to London, Ontario. I am sure you are enjoying your training.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Joshua,

I just watched the video and I think it points out one thing very clearly. That is, all technique-based systems will fail you because you are bound to a specific result. And when that result doesn't happen, you lose.

Every knife defense technique taught was immediately shown not to work. To me, that was a great lesson. (and I really mean that - I'm not being sarcastic at all) Thank you for sharing.


-John

 

[Seabrook]

Joshua,

I just watched the video and I think it points out one thing very clearly. That is, all technique-based systems will fail you because you are bound to a specific result. And when that result doesn't happen, you lose.

Every knife defense technique taught was immediately shown not to work. To me, that was a great lesson. (and I really mean that - I'm not being sarcastic at all) Thank you for sharing.


-John

John,

I couldn't disagree with you more. You are not bound by a specific result. By having knowledge of the Kenpo system, you can blend with encounters as they occur.

Remember the techniques are ideas not rules. As such, we have "what-if" factors in place should unintentional situations arise.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Jamie,

It is impossible to create a technique for every "what if" situation. A technique has a set beginning, set middle and set ending. If you constrain yourself to your techniques you will always lose.

If you intend for a situation to arise, you will lose. You must learn to simply accept what happens or what doesn't happen. There is no possible way to cover each senario with a technique. That is why we must learn to let go of techniques and allow the principles to guide us. I believe Hanshi Juchnik called this "Spirit-Guided Movement".

Even Ed Parker stated what I state now. He said something like techniques are created at the moment you need them, or something like that. So why he created 500 techniques (or maybe someone else created them) is beyond me.

Techniques are like handcuffs. You must learn to break free of them!


-John


PS. It seems that we both agree that one must learn to blend with the attack. I think what we might disagree on is the method in which we should teach to get that across. I like conceptual/principle-based and you, I think, like more technique-based.

 

[John Bishop]

Jamie,

It is impossible to create a technique for every "what if" situation. A technique has a set beginning, set middle and set ending. If you constrain yourself to your techniques you will always lose.

If you intend for a situation to arise, you will lose. You must learn to simply accept what happens or what doesn't happen. There is no possible way to cover each senario with a technique. That is why we must learn to let go of techniques and allow the principles to guide us. I believe Hanshi Juchnik called this "Spirit-Guided Movement".

Even Ed Parker stated what I state now. He said something like techniques are created at the moment you need them, or something like that. So why he created 500 techniques (or maybe someone else created them) is beyond me.

Techniques are like handcuffs. You must learn to break free of them!


-John


PS. It seems that we both agree that one must learn to blend with the attack. I think what we might disagree on is the method in which we should teach to get that across. I like conceptual/principle-based and you, I think, like more technique-based.

John;
You need to explain this a little more clearly. You almost sould like your saying that there is no need to practice and improve physical techniques, since your spirit will guide you.
I think almost everyone agrees that the spirit works best in unison with a strong mind and strong body.
So please explain a little more. Unless you are quoting Mr. Parker exactly, I would suspect his quote would have been something more like "the application of techniques is created at the moment you need them".

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Unless you are quoting Mr. Parker exactly, I would suspect his quote would have been something more like "the application of techniques is created at the moment you need them".

Hi John,

I didn't quote Ed Parker [didn't use quotes in my post] because I wasn't sure of the exacts words he said. But rather I tried to speak of to the meaning of what he said. I'm assuming, since you used quotes, that what you typed is exactly what he said. Thank you for clarifying that.

You need to explain this a little more clearly. You almost sould like your saying that there is no need to practice and improve physical techniques, since your spirit will guide you.

That is not at all what I am saying. More clearly, what I am saying, is that martial artists should not be practicing the same techniques over and over again. While they are practicing they need to allow non-set-in-stone ideas to flow out of themselves at the moment they need to. It is impossible to cover every "what if" senario with techniques, so we shouldn't waist time doing that.

Again, this doesn't mean that we shouldn't practice techniques at all. [I teach them to my students.] But we must not allow ourselves to be so conditioned that when at the moment we begin to defend ourselves we can only do movements in a certain order. [I believe Joe Shuras once told of a story of a person who was into pistol shooting competition. His technique taught him to fire twice and flip open his weapon - dumping the empty cartridges onto the ground. But one day when he had to fire at someone for real his technique took over and after two shots he dumped the rest of his bullets onto the ground.]

Let's pretend I attacked you. I would bet my home that you wouldn't do any set techniques exactly the way you were taught it. The main reason is that I would not attack you in any dojo-style method. I would be completely unpredictable.

I think almost everyone agrees that the spirit works best in unison with a strong mind and strong body.

I agree with this to a point.

There is a book I am currently reading about a Tai Chi master. He died about 20 years ago now. When he was in his seventies he said that he had to give up bowling. This was because the bowling ball was to heavy for him to hold. However, he apparently could still throw 250 pound men around like rag dolls.

I believe with proper understanding one need not use much of their own strength to defend themselves.

He was asked by one of his students why he did Tai Chi. He said he did it so that when he got old enough to appreciate the meaning of life, he would have the energy to do so. (He too believed in conditioning the body - to a certain extent)



I don't think techniques are all bad. But I do believe that many people never see beyond the set movements. That is bad. I am sure that you, without doubt, can see beyond the set movements. I believe your profession, as a police officer, forces that on you.



-John

 

[MJS]

One thing that I'd always stress to students, is that the techs. should be used as a foundation or an ingredient in something that we're cooking. Once the base tech. is formed, we can/should be expanding off of that.

For example: Often I'd have students in a tech. line running through various attacks. Often I'd have the 'attacker' throw a strike or grab in a fashion that the 'defender' is unfamiliar with. The student would often look at me with that 'deer in the headlights' look, having no idea what to do. I'd say to them, "Do you know how to move, block, punch, and kick?" Of course, they'd say yes. I'd then say, "Well, do it!!!" They'd be surprised at how, using a little imagination, they'd be able to come up with a response.

Often, I get the impression that people take the techs. that we learn as something that is set in stone. Not the case at all here, as we should be able to, as I said above, use the tech. as a foundation to build off of, expanding our knowledge.

Mike

 

[Seabrook]

Like I said, the techniques are ideas, not rules.

Would I be able to pull off an EXACT technique on the street? Maybe one from an earlier belt, but likely not one (at least the full move) from a higher belt. But if I am grabbed, I would remember to instantly check the hand that is grabbing me before I go on the offense. This comes from diligent and consistent practice of the techniques on partners so that it becomes automatic without having to think about it.

Similarly if someone is grabbing me in a rear bear hug, I understand the importance of dropping my weight so as to simultaneously drop the opponent's height so that he cannot pick you up. Why? Because I have practiced all of the techniques for a rear bear hug with a partner over and over.

The same can be said for any specific attack.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Dark Kenpo Lord]

Let's pretend I attacked you. I would bet my home that you wouldn't do any set techniques exactly the way you were taught it. The main reason is that I would not attack you in any dojo-style method. I would be completely unpredictable.



-John

Where exactly do you live and when can I move into my new home?

DarK LorD

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Where exactly do you live and when can I move into my new home?

DarK LorD

I tell ya what.... write down every set technique that you do so that we don't have a discrepancy later on. Then I'll attack you and if you don't do one of the exact techniques written down I get your house. If you do, you can have mine!

I live in NH. We just got a foot of snow, would you be willing to move in before I shovel? lol!


-John


PS. Oh wait a minute... you don't have a technique in which you get beat up, do you? Or how about the technique I've seen some people do in which they get down on their hands and knees and beg not to be attacked!! LOL!

(Just kidding!!)

 

[Seabrook]

Where exactly do you live and when can I move into my new home?

DarK LorD

Clyde,

Matt Trejo and I (he's a green belt with me you may recall) were in tears laughing hysterically with that one!!!!

On a side note, John, trust me....Clyde could pull of a set base technique.

Jamie

 

[Kosho-Monk]

On a side note, John, trust me....Clyde could pull of a set base technique.

Jamie

I guess I can't argue with that! lol!


Personally I think we all agree what the end product needs to look like. There is no doubt that Ed Parker Kenpo, Kajukenbo, Nick Cerio Kenpo, Pesare Kenpo, etc. are all great systems - with a lot of great practitioners.

So I guess I'll retract my challenge! (but still want someone to come shovel me out!)


-John

 

[Andrew Evans]

First of all, I want to thank Mr. Zach Whitson. His clip is informative and I enjoyed his manner of presentation. Learning counters to the set patterns of techniques are just as important as learning the techniques themselves. I have met many folks in our area of martial arts that truly believe their defenses against the knife will work. Welcome to Fantasyland! Once you work with a skilled knife fighter, you'll see what I mean.

Um, don't get too comfortable. Even though your knife defenses won't work with a skilled fighter, they might not even work against an unskilled fighter. Don't believe me? Want an eye-opener? Get a 12 or 14-year-old with absolutely no training and tell them they will get $30 if they can cut you and give them about two minutes worth of tries.

"Dissecting the corpse" or banging on the "crash test dummy" is the wrong philosophy. (My bad guys are neither dead nor dumb.) How many people are really going to just stand there and let you do that? Some of you may respond, "that's why they are called dummies because they are dumb." I'm sorry but I go on the assumption that the bad guy is NOT a dummy and prepare accordingly. Yes, learn the set patterns but also learn the counters. This will not only prepare you for the counters of a dynamic self-defense situation but also help you develop set patterns that are more counterproof (notice the word "more" as almost everything has a counter).

Finally, I'm not 100% sold with the religious worship of set techniques even though we practice a few of them. (They teach invaluable skills like good body mechanics, evasive techniques, proper footwork, and positional domination that allow the defender deliver damaging finishing techniques.) What I mean by religious worship is the insistence that some instructors push on their students. "This will always work as long as you do it hard enough and fast enough." Sure, more power and speed would help in most circumstances but saying that to a 98-pound defender that's worried if Advance Grab #3 would work when facing a 250-pound attacker will only go so far.

Thanks,
Andrew

 

[bdparsons]

When the fertilizer hits the ventilator effective self defense lies in the ability to recognize relative body position. The method of learning by techniques allows the individual to be exposed to various, numerous, countless (you choose the approriate word) body positions. The repetitive nature of proper training techniques on a basic level give you more tools for the tool box; on an advanced level training techniques allow the mind to recognize at faster and faster intervals these body postions, eventually developing to the point where the response will become almost anticipatory in nature. Whether you using the term grafting or the phrase "blending and borrowing" which I'm fond of, it all comes down to recognizing body position and the changes in body positions and being able to deal with it. Always be cautious of "paralysis by analysis"

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

 

[True2Kenpo]

Joshua,

I just watched the video and I think it points out one thing very clearly. That is, all technique-based systems will fail you because you are bound to a specific result. And when that result doesn't happen, you lose.

Every knife defense technique taught was immediately shown not to work. To me, that was a great lesson. (and I really mean that - I'm not being sarcastic at all) Thank you for sharing.


-John

John,

Thank you sir for sharing your thoughts on our lastest OTM! Thanks to everyone for their thoughts!

However, I do not completely agree with you in that "all technique-based systems will fail you."

I say I do not completely agree because in some sense you are absolutely right... many practicioners get caught up in the result specific reaction. But Mr. Parsons explained the point of the Kenpo techniques beautifully...
"When the fertilizer hits the ventilator effective self defense lies in the ability to recognize relative body position. The method of learning by techniques allows the individual to be exposed to various, numerous, countless (you choose the approriate word) body positions. The repetitive nature of proper training techniques on a basic level give you more tools for the tool box; on an advanced level training techniques allow the mind to recognize at faster and faster intervals these body postions, eventually developing to the point where the response will become almost anticipatory in nature. Whether you using the term grafting or the phrase "blending and borrowing" which I'm fond of, it all comes down to recognizing body position and the changes in body positions and being able to deal with it. Always be cautious of "paralysis by analysis""

The OTM was to emphasize the idea of a "trained fighter" and their counters. This clip is not the end of the information available. As Professor Whitson stated at the end of the clip, we only looked at the technique three levels deep. There would still exist the counters that follow... Within the Counterpoint system these counters/ recounters are learned, but it is still about positioning, timing, etc...

To be honest, some people have taken one glance at the information on the new OTM clip and said Josh-
"...there is Kenpo failing!"
Or-
"you do not believe Kenpo will work... why waste time studying an Art you do not believe in?"

Well my reply is... you are missing the point! I feel (NO I BELIEVE) Kenpo is a great system. But I think what is being taught in the community in general is only a scratch on the surface of what is really there. I also think there is alot that can be learned from other systems.

Lets open our eyes! Mr. Scott Bonner said it best in his KenpoNet forum posting, "...finding these weaknesses is the first step in making the kenpo stronger!"

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

 

[Kosho-Monk]

Hi Josh,

As a Kempo practitioner for over 20 years, I completely agree that Kempo is a great (and very effective) art. And in no way am I saying that what was shown on the video means Kempo (Kenpo) doesn't work. What I am saying is that the video clearly showed how someone can easily defeat a set technique. And as practitioners we need to recognize that and train accordingly. I thought the lesson on the video was a perfect lesson. And I really mean that.

Yes, there are counters to the attacker's counters. In fact, so many counters to counters that you cannot possibly have a set technique for each. This is what I mean by technique-based systems. And as I think about it, I really should say technique-based teachers. It isn't fair to say that any particular system is technique-based but rather point out that there are many teachers that have chosen not to move beyond the set techniques.

When I read all the responses to what I wrote I see that we all think in very similiar ways - we are just using different words.

I really like the clips and look foward to watching more as you put them out there.

Thanks.


-John


PS. I also saw that the blade of your knife was pointing away from your body! Your teacher said the blade should be pointing towards your arm!

 

[Andrew Evans]

I also think there is alot that can be learned from other systems.

AMEN! artyon:

Lets open our eyes! Mr. Scott Bonner said it best in his KenpoNet forum posting, "...finding these weaknesses is the first step in making the kenpo stronger!"

A second AMEN!! I applaud Mr. Whitson and other progressive instructors in the martial arts. Like parachutes, minds work best when opened.

Regards,

 

[Seabrook]

When the fertilizer hits the ventilator effective self defense lies in the ability to recognize relative body position. The method of learning by techniques allows the individual to be exposed to various, numerous, countless (you choose the approriate word) body positions. The repetitive nature of proper training techniques on a basic level give you more tools for the tool box; on an advanced level training techniques allow the mind to recognize at faster and faster intervals these body postions, eventually developing to the point where the response will become almost anticipatory in nature. Whether you using the term grafting or the phrase "blending and borrowing" which I'm fond of, it all comes down to recognizing body position and the changes in body positions and being able to deal with it. Always be cautious of "paralysis by analysis"

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute

WELL PUT!

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Seabrook]

Here's the way I look at the Kenpo teachniques.

When we study how to get out of a specific lock or hold, how to counter a punch attack, push, or weapon scenario, we often underestimate the specific attack since our techniques work in the studio and are very practical.

For instance, if we take Locked Wing....the opponent is ATTEMPTING to put us in a hammerlock. Our natural response should be to step back as it is occuring before the actual lock is applied. Kenpoists often make a false assumption that they can easily get out of a hammerlock (or bear hug, full nelson, or whatever). The truth is if someone is behind you and quickly pulls your arm up for a hammerlock, there comes a point where it is too late for you to react. The result? A broken arm.

Through diligent study and practice, however, we work on our reaction timing when doing partner work so as to minimize the likelihood of these potential pitfalls on the street.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com