Opinion needed on a fighting system

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm not sure about what is meant by forcing a technique when they tell you to "slow it down." When I say slow down it is usually related to control. Sometimes students will try to do things faster than they are able to handle and as a result technique falls apart.

For me forcing a technique is not about the speed or the power. It's more about using a technique that doesn't work natural for the position that they are in.

For example, I would have been screaming at Victor Moore (0:36) mark for trying to parry a punch starting from his waist. He was forcing a technique that was never designed to be used from that position.

I would have yelled "Do we train like that in class? Then why would you stand like that with your hands to the side and expect it to work." lol. He would have a long 2 hour lecture about something that only takes less than 2 minutes to understand. If Bruce Lee told him to stand like that, then he should have said. Nah bruh!! It don't work that way. lol
I don't think I've heard of "technique forcing" as something that relates to "slow it down" is that related to muscling technique? When I hear slow it down, it's usually because someone is trying to do a technique faster than they are capable of doing. The faster someone goes the more likely a technique will fall apart. So speed and technique are often trained with the goal of being able to go fast without destroying or short cutting technique.

What is usually happening when they are saying "slow it down" are they doing forms or is someone punching too hard?

With NGA, when students are supposed to be using the principle of "aiki" (finding where there's an opening for a technique that requires no force), they have to start very slow, so they can feel the opening. Many try to go fast, to mimic what they've seen someone else (in my case, me) do. When they go faster than they are currently capable of, they tend to use muscle, because their timing is off or they've missed the kuzushi (off-balancing) moment. Sometimes, when they go fast, it works, but only because they are moving faster than their partner, which can give them a false sense of skill.

 

[Justin Chang]

Yeah, I took it that Tony Blauer was teaching the seminar myself.

$200 is steep for any seminar and an eight hour seminar is sure to burn you out after a couple of hours. However, if it is taught over a couple of days then two, four hour seminars might be good. All depends on how good the teacher is with the material.

I think this may depend on the person, I have attended seminars that were three days long and each day was over 8 hours. I didn't find it overwhelming or burning me out, but we had lots of discussions, break for lunch, physical exercises so it wasn't tedious. I don't think that $200 is really steep for a seminar, seems to be the going rate actually.

 

[jks9199]

Is the seminar worth the money? Don't know, haven't taken it. Tony Blauer makes some great gear. He also has marketed himself and his program really well. By all accounts, he's a great presenter, very dynamic and exciting.

But, for all that... he hasn't walked the walk. And I have an issue with that. He's never been a cop, a security guard, or bouncer, or door man, or anything similar. So, as much as folks like what he teaches and say it's solid... I don't know how effectively they actually took his material. In a small comparison -- I know that the Gracies took their DT package out, and when they received criticism on it -- they tested it and adapted to what they found. Or showed that their ideas worked... at least in a sort of standardized set up. I am not aware that Blauer has done that -- or that he hasn't.

If you've got the money and time, what they hell? What's the worst outcome? You spend a day finding out that it's crap? I don't know about anyone else, but I always find at least one useful thing out of a training experience... even if it's just "I never want to do that again!"

 

[Juany118]

Is the seminar worth the money? Don't know, haven't taken it. Tony Blauer makes some great gear. He also has marketed himself and his program really well. By all accounts, he's a great presenter, very dynamic and exciting.

But, for all that... he hasn't walked the walk. And I have an issue with that. He's never been a cop, a security guard, or bouncer, or door man, or anything similar. So, as much as folks like what he teaches and say it's solid... I don't know how effectively they actually took his material. In a small comparison -- I know that the Gracies took their DT package out, and when they received criticism on it -- they tested it and adapted to what they found. Or showed that their ideas worked... at least in a sort of standardized set up. I am not aware that Blauer has done that -- or that he hasn't.

If you've got the money and time, what they hell? What's the worst outcome? You spend a day finding out that it's crap? I don't know about anyone else, but I always find at least one useful thing out of a training experience... even if it's just "I never want to do that again!"

The "what the hell" is something I believe in a lot. You never know until it's been tried. Even if it's been tried by others it may not work for you personally because we are all different, both physically and mentally. While I am not an cop in Great Britain though I would hope that the https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Chief_Police_Officer did their research before this became the only system, apparently, that they ever put into a personal training manual

 

[Buka]

On a personal note -
I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops.
I had steam coming out my ears.

Funny how things work out. I'm going back into Law Enforcement in a few weeks. Been jumping through hoops for a month, qualified at the range this afternoon. Once I'm back in I'm going to contact them again, send them my creds - and then tell them to take their program and shove it up their.......
And if I ever get to go to one of their seminars anywhere around here, I'm going to, just to voice my displeasure in person, warn the other older cops how they'll be thrown aside soon, and just maybe, have me some fun. And I SO hope to God Tony Blauer is teaching.
Abuse of the elderly is what it is!

I still like their stuff, though.

 

[Justin Chang]

On a personal note -
I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops.
I had steam coming out my ears.

Funny how things work out. I'm going back into Law Enforcement in a few weeks. Been jumping through hoops for a month, qualified at the range this afternoon. Once I'm back in I'm going to contact them again, send them my creds - and then tell them to take their program and shove it up their.......
And if I ever get to go to one of their seminars anywhere around here, I'm going to, just to voice my displeasure in person, warn the other older cops how they'll be thrown aside soon, and just maybe, have me some fun. And I SO hope to God Tony Blauer is teaching.
Abuse of the elderly is what it is!

I still like their stuff, though.

I really respect someone who has 'issues' with a person or group of people running a course or style but yet they don't just bad talk the style itself. Too many people would have had your experience and then gone out and bad talked the whole system. This is how I personally feel about Commando Krav Maga, I think their material is solid, I like the style, however there is so much contraversy around Moni that many people won't even look at it.

 

[Juany118]

On a personal note -
I've never attended a Blauer seminar, never met the man. But have used the SPEAR system training with, and teaching, other cops. I've done some training with some of his people over the years and learned some good things. While I was a DT trainer I was part of their network, you know, getting updates, class schedules, blah, blah. Then I retired.
But I was still training Law Enforcement officers, lots of them. Called Blauer's people for something or other, I forget what. I was told, "Oh, we're sorry, you're not active Law enforcement any more..." so basically they said screw you, even though I had been retired all of a week and was still training cops.
I had steam coming out my ears.

Funny how things work out. I'm going back into Law Enforcement in a few weeks. Been jumping through hoops for a month, qualified at the range this afternoon. Once I'm back in I'm going to contact them again, send them my creds - and then tell them to take their program and shove it up their.......
And if I ever get to go to one of their seminars anywhere around here, I'm going to, just to voice my displeasure in person, warn the other older cops how they'll be thrown aside soon, and just maybe, have me some fun. And I SO hope to God Tony Blauer is teaching.
Abuse of the elderly is what it is!

I still like their stuff, though.

Heck that last bit happens on the job sometimes. You stop living at work after 15-20 years or so, to say not have your wife say "fff this", the new single guys and gals come on-line running and gunning and living there the way you used to... You can start feeling like Woody from "Toy Story" some days

 

[wingchun100]

I know nothing of the system, so won't comment on it's functionality, but I would question what's really motivating someone charging $200 for a seminar.

It's like she is earning $25 an hour, but figure some of this money has to go into renting the facility where the seminar will be held, maybe paying any assitant instructor she has (she might bring along one colleague so she can demonstrate techniques on them), and other expenses.

 

[wingchun100]

Just curious here and to see what everyone has to say from experience or not on the Tony Blauers S.P.E.A.R. system?? Worth the $200 for a 8 hour seminar?

My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?

 

[Justin Chang]

My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?

I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?

 

[wingchun100]

I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?

Okay, here we go with semantics.

When MOST people think "self-defense," they think of the physical techniques that you use to repel an attack. And not for nothing, but I doubt she was hosting an 8-hour seminar on how to de-escalate a situation. People don't shell out that much money to watch someone teach them how to talk an attacker down.

 

[wingchun100]

PS: If she got into street fights where she was handing everyone she encountered their butts...then no, her self-defense skills DON'T suck. (It would be highly unlikely that she was always the victor, but then again...the likelihood that she got into a ton of street fights was a silly notion in and of itself. I was being sarcastic.)

 

[Justin Chang]

Okay, here we go with semantics.

When MOST people think "self-defense," they think of the physical techniques that you use to repel an attack. And not for nothing, but I doubt she was hosting an 8-hour seminar on how to de-escalate a situation. People don't shell out that much money to watch someone teach them how to talk an attacker down.

To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense. When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills? In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks. Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either. I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics. People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important. When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.

 

[wingchun100]

The OP's question was about our opinions on a "fighting system," not on a "de-escalation system." Therefore, unless the woman with 1.5 years of experience has been in a lot of fights for that short amount of time, I was advising him to steer clear.

 

[drop bear]

To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense. When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills? In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks. Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either. I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics. People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important. When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.

Everybody is pretty terrible at teaching it because there is no real cohesive system for it. You cant train it very easily. You dont know if any of it works past very basic ideas like dont be a duchebag. So the instructors have no resources to develope a decent program. The best you get is someone who has read verbal Judo. And is therefore an expert.

And I am not paying someone to tell me to try to not get into fights. I can do that on my own.

 

[wingchun100]

Everybody is pretty terrible at teaching it because there is no real cohesive system for it. You cant train it very easily. You dont know if any of it works past very basic ideas like dont be a duchebag. So the instructors have no resources to develope a decent program. The best you get is someone who has read verbal Judo. And is therefore an expert.

And I am not paying someone to tell me to try to not get into fights. I can do that on my own.

Honestly, it is also hard to tell if the punches, kicks and grappling that we train will work until it happens under pressure. However, as you said, no one would pay someone to tell you to avoid fights. We pay to learn what to do once the fists are being thrown.

 

[drop bear]

Honestly, it is also hard to tell if the punches, kicks and grappling that we train will work until it happens under pressure. However, as you said, no one would pay someone to tell you to avoid fights. We pay to learn what to do once the fists are being thrown.

It is easier to tell with fighting because you punch kick and grapple under pressure in training. You see it work or not work.

You don't really competitively train talking. The best you get is pretending to deescalate. But is has no real effect on the outcome.

If you look at sales. The take their talking techniques. Apply them. Succeed or fail. Then refine those techniques. Then you pay the big money to a guy with the proven track record.

Real skills.

The martial arts version is like banging two rocks together.

 

[Juany118]

I would think if she got in real street fights every day then her self defense skills suck, isn't the point to AVOID those encounters?

It depends. It depends on her career and what she means by fights. I use certain martial arts techniques almost everyday (locks and such), and then less often but still regularly, strikes and takedowns due to my career. I then use to tactics, mindset etc taught in these systems every day. Some careers, LEO, Corrections, etc mean that you may simply not have the option to avoid conflict. If I am not mistaken the "train the trainer" for this particular system is only available to active LEO and Corrections.

Also these systems, in total, also use "target hardening" (proper use of observation, keeping in my tactical considerations etc) to try an avoid the situation from becoming a fight. Now whether the instructor here will go over those skills in a seminar, that is the bigger question.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My main concern is the short amount of experience that the woman has. Then again, you don't know what she did in that year and a half. Maybe she got in real street fights every day and really knows her stuff?

If she gets into street fights on a regular basis (to say nothing of "every day"), she has very poor judgment, and isn't someone I want to learn anything from. Not even physical fighting skills.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To me this is one of the largest shortcommings in self-defense. When you go to a seminar or if you go to martial arts classes they simply say "if you have no other choice" then the rest of the entire class is physical techniques, why not train in deesculation? Why not teach avoidance techniques? Why not show awareness drills? In my not so humble opinion if your self-defense is lacking in those areas and is purely physical then yes your self-defense sucks. Also I would add that legally you would probably not be the victor either. I understand that you may have been kidding around, but my point is just as valid and I do not believe is argumenting symantics. People signing up for a self-defense class want to not be attacked on the street, giving them the tools to never even be in that situation in the first place should be most important. When all those fail then you have your physical techniques.

One issue with evaluating classes on these is that most of those skills don't require the in-school practice levels that physical skills require. If I spent even half of my time teaching those skills, I'd be over-teaching them. Many self-defense instructors do teach some or all of those topics. Many of us could do more (myself included - I'm in the middle of re-working parts of my curriculum to that end).