Open and Close (开合): A Single Term, Two Different Methods

[windwalker099102]

I don't know that I can separate the "external" and "internal" things (at this stage of learning). For example if we do a form move of "peng" and arms sort of visibly move up and out, on the "inside" we may feel some kind of "energy expansion". If we do a form move of push down, pull down, roll back, with some visible movement on the outside, on the inside, we may feel some kind of "energy going down or back".

It might be better to look at as awareness, the process of eliminating things that cover it up, enhancing things that are thought to develop it...it making itself known through the innate awareness that all have.

It is said fist in mind, expressed through intent. "Yi" leads the "qi" body follows this. If one stops to try to feel the "qi" they will miss "it" as what is there will be ignored for something thought to be missing... If one is not aware of what is already there, how can one expect to feel something thought to be missing...

 

[Gyakuto103]

I don't know that I can separate the "external" and "internal" things (at this stage of learning). For example if we do a form move of "peng" and arms sort of visibly move up and out, on the "inside" we may feel some kind of "energy expansion". If we do a form move of push down, pull down, roll back, with some visible movement on the outside, on the inside, we may feel some kind of "energy going down or back".

Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, muscle sarcomeres at the top of the length/tension relationship curve, optimal neural recruitment of the muscles etc. They were probably stumbled upon and then refined over years of practise.

Then, it doesn't really matter too much what are the physics - fascia, energy - everything is ultimately energy if we follow physics far enough down the rabbit hole - these are too hard to understand and "science" doesn't look at this much.

<wince> mass and energy are equivalent, not the same thing! The energy yielded in the Hiroshima bomb was equivalent to about a match head of mass and required a very specific set of conditions. I wish I could punch that hard!

 

[Gyakuto103]

It might be better to look at as awareness, the process of eliminating things that cover it up, enhancing things that are thought to develop it...it making itself known through the innate awareness that all have.

I like that explanation; the revealing of ‘it’.

It is said fist in mind, expressed through intent. "Yi" leads the "qi" body follows this. If one stops to try to feel the "qi" they will miss "it" as what is there will be ignored for something thought to be missing... If one is not aware of what is already there, how can one expect to feel something thought to be missing...

“Seek it and it cannot be found…” Tao Te Ching

 

[HighKick1]

Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, muscle sarcomeres at the top of the length/tension relationship curve, optimal neural recruitment of the muscles etc. They were probably stumbled upon and then refined over years of practise.

<wince> mass and energy are equivalent, not the same thing! The energy yielded in the Hiroshima bomb was equivalent to about a match head of mass and required a very specific set of conditions. I wish I could punch that hard!

Mass and energy are two Very different terms.

When I read the conversation I keep going back to the two states of energy, potential and kinetic. Without some other mechanism (like an atomic bomb) you cannot have one without the other.

 

[windwalker099102]

Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, muscle sarcomeres at the top of the length/tension relationship curve, optimal neural recruitment of the muscles etc. They were probably stumbled upon and then refined over years of practise.

Interesting reading

It is thought that the PEC distributes forces during passive stretching and maintains the alignment of muscle fibers while the SEC serves to store up elastic energy to be released during muscle contraction [5] and play a role in stability during isometric contraction[4

Biomechanical explanations like joint alignment, elastic storage, and neural recruitment are certainly part of what’s happening.
“it is thought” acknowledge these are models, not complete explanations.

Chinese frameworks developed differently. Some of what they describe overlaps with fascia and elastic force, while other parts don’t map cleanly onto Western terminology. Different ways of describing lived experience.

To effectively train the fascia and regulate Qi, one should utilize simple, unchanging movements like the starting stance. When generating power, the fascia should remain continuous, and when encountering resistance, it should extend and relax further, allowing the opponent to be uprooted.

The Bear Stance is also a method of training the fascia; the arc-shaped, dotted line projected by the extended fascia is sufficient to activate the entire body. With all the fascia (from fingertips to the Yongquan point) connected, during the Subduing Demons and Subduing the Mind exercise, the hands rise and form a circle, lowering to the solar plexus.

" it should extend and relax further, allowing the opponent to be uprooted. "

The idea of “opening” is counterintuitive.
Instead of causing a reaction by doing more, the reaction arises by doing less — extending, relaxing, and letting the opponent uproot themselves.


"Bear turn (side to side shifting) 熊經"

 

[Appledog41]

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Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, muscle sarcomeres at the top of the length/tension relationship curve, optimal neural recruitment of the muscles etc. They were probably stumbled upon and then refined over years of practise.

In general people can only feel their chi when there is something wrong, then they feel the effects of the chi trying to flow through a broken area as pain or discomfort. It presents quite the conundrum for those seeking chi to help aid their martial arts. There are special ways to deal with this but as a the general rule it almost always applies.

 

[Gyakuto103]

In general people can only feel their chi when there is something wrong, then they feel the effects of the chi trying to flow through a broken area as pain or discomfort.

I hope you’ll forgive me for suggesting that displays conformational bias.

It presents quite the conundrum for those seeking chi to help aid their martial arts.

Well, training in martial arts does cause hurt!

There are special ways to deal with this but as a the general rule it almost always applies.

There is absolutely zero evidence for the existence of chi/ki in the terms made by traditional Chinese cultural philosophy.

 

[windwalker099102]

In some cases we may be talking past each other working from different layers:


• a phenomenological / descriptive viewpoint — what it looks like and feels like
• a functional / boundary-control viewpoint — what it actually does and how it constrains or redirects force


Classical Chinese teaching uses metaphor heavily, often pointing to both layers at once without explicitly separating them.

For example, Taiji texts use the phrase:

(如开弓放箭 (rú kāi gōng fàng jiàn) — “like opening a bow and releasing an arrow.”

That analogy does not justify loading the body with tension or compressing it like a spring.
It points to elastic opening without local rigidity, where issuing happens by removing obstruction, not by releasing stored muscular force.

This helps explain why so many people can quote the analogy yet demonstrate the opposite — they load the body like a spring, harden locally, and then wonder why the force snaps back instead of transmitting.

 

[Marsha Larts]

"Bear turn (side to side shifting) 熊經"

That is identical to the Advance-Retreat exercise of Nine Temple Qigong

 

[Appledog41]

I hope you’ll forgive me for suggesting that displays conformational bias.

Confirmation bias
is the human tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and remember information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs, expectations, or values, while simultaneously ignoring or downplaying evidence that contradicts them.

Hmm, not by the dictionary definition; at advanced stages of Tai Chi training -- and also found in many other Chinese arts -- are exercises where the Sifu actively instigates against your Chi in such a way as to help you train things like Song. So, if there was no evidence for Chi and it was just confirmation bias, the exercises I mentioned wouldn't work. I'd also quote you a few posts up; "Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, ..." So, what do you mean there's no evidence? There's no evidence for people being able to feel the most advantageous alignment of joints?

Also, I said "There are special ways to deal with this but as a the general rule it almost always applies." You didn't ask me anything about that, despite me essentially offering a more concrete explanation (possibly with evidence). I find it ironic, very dryly (forgive me!) that you essentially demonstrated a 'tendancy to confirm your prior belief, while simultaneously ignoring what I said.' I mean, I understand what you said, but I am speaking from experience here.

But we've had this discussion before (not us, I mean we, the forum goers, it's an old discussion). Which is why I tend to only mention certain things about my own experience and wait and see if people pick up on it. If I showed you a chart of this over the years it would be on a downward trendline. In general, the western kungfu world has largely rejected it's TCM roots and has attempted to "figure it out on their own". It's a great experiment, I say let them spin and see what they come up with!

 

[Appledog41]

Open and close are worth studying.
They’re not optional — they are the path. Everything else grows out of them.
Experiences vary, but the underlying method stays consistent.

Traditionally, until someone reaches a certain stage, true open and true close aren’t available yet.
Their “closing” won’t really close, and their “opening” won’t really open.

Sun style, and Wu/Hao style became known as Kai-He Tai Chi. During this time (in the 1960s), Gu Liuxin invited Hao Shaoru to teach as the 5th major style of Tai Chi, at the Shanghai Sports Hall -- the spiritual center of the shanghai crowd at the time, IIRC. So, these concepts became associated strongly with Hao and Sun style and less so with other styles, who each started positioning themselves as specialist in various things; being good for various things. Even though other lines might not have kept pace with the family. Today, Sun style has special methods to train open and close, as does Hao style, going back to Wu Yuxiang's education in the Chen Village.

You see, open and close are not ambiguous terms at all, but Yang style largely ignores them and holds back training open and close directly in the fundamentals. One of the things Wu Yuxiang did, and Sun Lutang ended up capitalizing on (by bringing in approproate, master-confirmed exercises from baguazhang and xinyi/xingyi) is the large set of open and close material in the jibengong and the long form, exercises he restored to the non-chen styles of the art. Sun Lutang was a minimalist so he presented, I think, three major exercises, with the first one (the most simple one) being responsible for what, 70% of the training? Then the expansion into single whip being the next 25%, and the final 5% are some things you may pick up from brush knee twist step. There are many other openings and closings found there, explicitly, but they are yours to discover after those first three.

For decades as a Yang stylist I didn't really get open and close, even after re-reading Xiang Kairen's work many times. It was only after I learned Sun style that I started getting the hang of it. I noticed that it neatly aligned and boosted what I had already learned in Yang, Wu, and Chen style-- as if it was a missing puzzle piece or air intake valve or something. It was like a second opinion. As a result I came to the understanding that Yang style was a style full of secrets with-held from the players. You can still get very good at it, but you do so with an empty mind through practice alone. I like the extra tips given in other styles. Feels more complete.

I don't thus doubt at all you feel that opening and closing isn't really opening and closing, but I assure you it is well-explained with several direct qigong exercises in Sun style. I hated it when I started learning it, but I tried it and it turns out I grew to love it. Sun style, I reccomend to anyone who does Tai Chi, it is an excellent addition to any style of tai chi.

Tai Chi is one family, all the major styles are exactly the same, just different training methods.

 

[Gyakuto103]

Confirmation bias
is the human tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and remember information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs, expectations, or values, while simultaneously ignoring or downplaying evidence that contradicts them.

Hmm, not by the dictionary definition; at advanced stages of Tai Chi training -- and also found in many other Chinese arts -- are exercises where the Sifu actively instigates against your Chi in such a way as to help you train things like Song. So, if there was no evidence for Chi and it was just confirmation bias, the exercises I mentioned wouldn't work.

That’s a ‘Circular argument’;

Interviewer: [Why didn’t your Chi ‘no touch KO’ work on the scientist?]
Dillman: The skeptic was a total non-believer…plus…I don’t know if I should say this on film…but if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position in his mouth that can nullify it. Yeah, you can nullify it if you raise those two big toes…

Erica: "How do you know that the bible is divinely inspired?"
Pedro: "Because is says so in the third chapter of II Timothy that 'all scripture is given by divine inspiration of God.

Parent: “It's time to go to bed.”
Child: “Why?”
Parent: “Because this is your bedtime.”

I'd also quote you a few posts up; "Personally, I believe that these ‘sensations of energy’ and indeed chi/ki, are the effect of the most advantageous ‘alignment’ of joints, ..." So, what do you mean there's no evidence? There's no evidence for people being able to feel the most advantageous alignment of joints?

No, I mean there is no objective evidence of Chi/Ki being a preternatural, or indeed supernatural phenomenon, in the way traditional Chinese philosophy suggests. Instead it’s the effect are the result of physics, neurochemistry and psychology. It can’t be objectively demonstrated, it can’t be measured, even indirectly. The ingenious use of joint angles, application of force etc is so confounding that it can, on casual inspection by the uninitiated, be concluded to be what ‘the ancients’ suggest it is.

Also, I said "There are special ways to deal with this but as a the general rule it almost always applies." You didn't ask me anything about that, despite me essentially offering a more concrete explanation (possibly with evidence).

There’s either evidence or there isn’t. You didn’t provide ‘concrete’ evidence, only a circular argument.

I find it ironic, very dryly (forgive me!) that you essentially demonstrated a 'tendancy to confirm your prior belief, while simultaneously ignoring what I said.' I mean, I understand what you said, but I am speaking from experience here.

Experience is not really evidence. If a Karateka kicks people and they repeatedly fall down and roll around in pain, then the evidence of the efficacy of Karate kicks in making people fall down and roll around in pain is more substantial than hit-and-miss effects of what the ‘the ancients’ with regards chi/ki.

But we've had this discussion before (not us, I mean we, the forum goers, it's an old discussion). Which is why I tend to only mention certain things about my own experience and wait and see if people pick up on it. If I showed you a chart of this over the years it would be on a downward trendline. In general, the western kungfu world has largely rejected its TCM roots and has attempted to "figure it out on their own". It's a great experiment, I say let them spin and see what they come up with!

This is the perspective to which I subscribe.

Just in case you prefer explanations of chi from a Chinese martial artist (things always sound better when spoken with an Eastern accent rather than Yesse’s mid-Atlantic drawl) here’s a surprisingly measured explanation from a ‘master’

So in conclusion, I reject the preter-/supernatural explanation of chi/ki but instead support a biomechanical explanation.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I don’t know if I should say this on film…but if the guy had his tongue in the wrong position in his mouth that can nullify it.

All I can say is that after practicing tongue-fu for many years, I have never been "no touch" knocked out. I must admit that this noble little-known art is not effective against "touch" knock out punches, a fact I learned the hard way many years ago.

you can nullify it if you raise those two big toes…

I'm not a fan of toe-chi. I think it's only good for old people to exercise in the park, not for actual combat.

While on the subject of exotic MA, I will comment on hopkido (literally, "the way of hopping energy"). IMO, it's only effective if attacked by a hostile bunny or kangaroo.

No offense meant to those who may practice these arts. I'm only giving my professional opinion based on decades of experience in TMA.

 

[windwalker099102]

Interesting

My experience — and the experience of people I know — does not align with that conclusion.

What I see instead is that most demonstrations terminate force at the limb and mistake that for internal issuing. That mechanical misunderstanding explains why those demos fail, without requiring dismissal of the underlying method.

The thread is not too validate an explanation used in some of the concepts, but more to explore the differences in concept and application .

 

[Gyakuto103]

I shall therefore bow out

 

[Appledog41]

No, I mean there is no objective evidence of Chi/Ki being a preternatural, or indeed supernatural phenomenon, in the way traditional Chinese philosophy suggests. Instead it’s the effect are the result of physics, neurochemistry and psychology. It can’t be objectively demonstrated, it can’t be measured, even indirectly. The ingenious use of joint angles, application of force etc is so confounding that it can, on casual inspection by the uninitiated, be concluded to be what ‘the ancients’ suggest it is.

Your first mistake was assuming that Chi is suggested to be a supernatural phenomenon by traditional Chinese philosophy. To wit, the two source videos you posted are by people who are not trained in Chinese philosophy. A bit of a joke. I also subscribe to the same position as you. To wit, what did Shi say?

* 1:50 "But to claim that it would be a technique to like throw people around, I don't know, but I don't think so."
* 2:02 "You can develop certain things which seem very very supernatural, that logically make no sense, absolutely. ... especially in the healing area."

I get your point and I agree with you. I was just chiming in to educate on some of the difficulties in dealing with Chi, such as the interesting fact that it is very difficult to feel unless you're feeling discomfort or pain because of it. When it flows, it flows naturally, and does not cause a disturbance. This is how we grew up.

Experience is not really evidence.

Kungfu, like zen buddhism, offers a value proposition. You can do it, and you will experience the results. That's the evidence -- the results of a a repeatable experiment. It's actually quite scientific. I'm not sure what else you were expecting. What kind of evidence, in particular, are you looking for?

Just in case you prefer explanations of chi from a Chinese martial artist (things always sound better when spoken with an Eastern accent rather than Yesse’s mid-Atlantic drawl) here’s a surprisingly measured explanation from a ‘master’

Makes sense to me -- listen to the words of a master! Good call. I like Shi, but he isn't really a Shaolin monk. Still, he is relatively credible in the kungfu world. A good example of a western master.

 

[QuantumKitty]

Fun Factoid: One of the many contexts that some Taijiquan lines apply the terms "open" and "close" to is the chest.

Opening and closing the chest. It's a component to a more holistic body mechanic.

And this is a bit of nuance because "Han Xiong Ba Bei" (Hollow Chest Raise Back) is viewed as a default standard.

Y'all can let me know if Opening/Closing the chest is a mechanic in your styles.

 

[Appledog41]

No offense meant to those who may practice these arts. I'm only giving my professional opinion based on decades of experience in TMA.

No offense taken -- but professional opinion is a bit of a stretch. I've likely been doing this for longer than you have, but that alone doesn't mean my opinion is valid. Then again, i've seen the whole thing play out over decades -- people getting cheated, quitting in frustration, getting shaken out -- moving to other sifus, other arts -- I feel ya!

My experience — and the experience of people I know — does not align with that conclusion.

The thread is not too validate an explanation used in some of the concepts, but more to explore the differences in concept and application .

I think we need a new style of Tai Chi to fix this problem. We need a new Wu Yuxiang What do you think, windwalker? Wanna give it a try?

Fun Factoid: One of the many contexts that some Taijiquan lines apply the terms "open" and "close" to is the chest.

Opening and closing the chest. It's a component to a more holistic body mechanic.

And this is a bit of nuance because "Han Xiong Ba Bei" (Hollow Chest Raise Back) is viewed as a default standard.

Y'all can let me know if Opening/Closing the chest is a mechanic in your styles.

Yes, I do Sun style for quite a number of years, Hao style and Sun style are known as Kai He tai chi (open and close tai chi) and begin by opening and closing in the chest.

 

[windwalker099102]

I'm only giving my professional opinion based on decades of experience.

Reading the follow on post
a few thoughts.

Many here also have decades of experience — one of the strengths of posting on this site. Many with that depth of experience take the time to share viewpoints shaped by years of practice and reflection. Whether one agrees or not, it does make the discussions more interesting and reflective.

I shall therefore bow out

Thanks for posting and for sharing your thoughts. Feel free to jump back in if something catches your eye.

The different lenses people use , can make discussion tricky — it’s easy to respond from one lens while assuming it’s addressing the same thing.

In my own practice, naming something has never been as important as the results it produces. When speaking of internal and external methods, the distinction is usually quite clear in person. Online, however, it can become tangled up in demonstrations or explanations of things one hasn’t actually experienced or can’t do, reinforcing viewpoints not grounded in practice.

That may also explain why some who do share common experience tend not to engage much with those who don’t.

You may find this interesting reading
Use google translate to translate the page...

A Discussion on Tai Chi Chuan and Fascia Theory

The so-called "Qi circulating throughout the body" and "using Qi to move the body" may be due to the coordinated operation of the fascia network that covers the entire body.

The ancients used the term "Qi" not because it was mystical, but because they couldn't articulate the specific facts. Modern science, with the aid of anatomy and imaging technology, is gradually able to explain the more mystical explanations of the ancients, preventing people today from falling into the trap of misguided thinking and developing heretical beliefs.

While I don’t necessarily agree with what’s written, I do find it interesting.

There are groups in Taiwan, for example, who are actively trying to relate what was written historically to contemporary Western medical understanding using modern instrumentation.

 

[everything]

It might be better to look at as awareness, the process of eliminating things that cover it up, enhancing things that are thought to develop it...it making itself known through the innate awareness that all have.

It is said fist in mind, expressed through intent. "Yi" leads the "qi" body follows this. If one stops to try to feel the "qi" they will miss "it" as what is there will be ignored for something thought to be missing... If one is not aware of what is already there, how can one expect to feel something thought to be missing...

things start in the mind so any theory or conceptualization can get in the way. once you feel "it" or if you maybe did "it", imho the experience challenges all of that, kind of breaks your intellectualization like a real life Zen koan. not really possible to describe or articulate with the existing theories. people w/o the same experience will think things are "woo" or something. "breaks physics" etc. Analogies only help to an extent. the very "vague" descriptions from Taoism, TCM, internal arts writings seem better.

getting back to solo work, it's still difficult. I think it's easy to want to attach to the "qi" feeling but maybe this is just a necessary phase to link "external" to "internal" whole body and prep to not be "localized" in a very simple push hands cooperative drill.