old school/clasic tkd

[Manny]

This morning went to my former dogan j and had a little chat with my former sambonim, a man I respect alot and certanly a great and good influence in my life, Master Ramon Alvite Gazca. When I meet Mastar Alvite he was a 3rd dan and he was the representative of Jido Kwan in my estate, he was the first TKD sambonim in my state and city, right now he is 7th dan Black Belt.

We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.

Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.

I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.

Manny

 

[Kinghercules]

I understand where you're coming from. For some reason the Olympic style of TDK is more well know and practice than it was before. From what I can tell the old way of training and fighting become the "American freestyle" sparring. I cant stand thins kinda sparring. Its like you're playing tag in the ring. And another thing is that its a money thing. When ppl walk into a dojo and see the matted floor and the students all padded up when sparring they think thats how its suppose to be because thats what is shown on tv.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Good to hear manny. He sounds similar to our GM, still teaches the same way today as he did 40 years ago, and not happy with the direction the art has gone in relation to sport, olympics etc. Good to hear there are like minded instructors out there. Of course certain people will jump on here and tell you he should move with the times or that he has "stagnated" or that he is "bitter" or doesnt "follow the wishes of the pioneers" etc etc But Im glad there are still the old school guys out there teaching how they feel tkd should be taught and not just mindlessly following the masses. Good on him Manny.

 

[RobinTKD]

What I love about Taekwondo, is that it allows so much freedom of expression within the art, you can have your own style within the style and still be recognisable as taekwondoin. If that means you teach and learn in an 'Old School' way, then that's good if it works, the same if you take a more modern approach, or a sports approach. There is no right or wrong path as long as your technique is good and you adhere to the principles.

Manny, as you've been feeling a little bitter about your current class, why not train with your original GM? It sounds like you'd have a great time.

 

[GlassJaw]

My school is part of the Chung Do Kwan, which, like the Ji Do you mentioned, is one of the original kwans recognized/overseen by the Kukkiwan. As we still maintain that association [I mention this because I know that there are many schools and now-independent organizations that have split with their parent kwans, yet retain their kwan name], WTF-style sparring remains an official part of our curriculum (and also part of our testing requirements).

However, sport sparring is by no means the main focus of what we do. It is more an off-shoot activity that allows contact application of TKD techniques in a controlled environment. Training for it also permits us to better participate with other clubs in tournaments. (Being able to interact with other schools and observe the great variety within TKD is one of the things I love most about tournaments.)

Granted, for many members of our school, sparring is their favorite part of TKD. However, for some others, like myself, it is just a minor enhancement to the program. I do enjoy it (usually), but only as a supplement to (or occasional distraction from) the rest of the training. (Admittedly, I suppose I might be more into it if I was any good at it.)

I find I have a greater preference for the more traditional aspects (as I see them) of TKD training: forms, SD, discipline, philosophy, etc. For that matter, I'm not particularly drawn to street fighting, either. My own goals are mainly related to fitness, overcoming physical and mental challenges, and developing/expanding my abilities. (Winning a match generally gives me less personal satisfaction than does finally managing to execute a difficult spin kick.)

My only real dislike of sparring is the increased risk of sustaining injuries that might interfere with the rest of my training (or with my ability to function outside the dojang). No matter the controls, sparring carries such risk. And my medical insurance does not cover much.

I'm not a fighter. . .don't really seek to be one. Sure, it would be nice to know that I have some skills that could help me out of a confrontation, but if I was really concerned about that, TKD would likely not have been my first choice. (And certainly not Olympic-style sparring.) Similarly, it would be nice to know how to dance the tango, too, but that's also just not something I've ever felt enough to need to pursue learning.

To me, sparring is just a game. Some do it competitively, others just recreationally. Same is true of chess. I enjoy the occasional chess game--sometimes I even win, but I have little desire to develop or demonstrate excellence at it.

Were sparring (or, for that matter, any single aspect of the training in our club) to become our primary focus, I expect I would lose interest in TKD altogether. I like having a balanced program.

 

[mastercole]

This morning went to my former dogan j and had a little chat with my former sambonim, a man I respect alot and certanly a great and good influence in my life, Master Ramon Alvite Gazca. When I meet Mastar Alvite he was a 3rd dan and he was the representative of Jido Kwan in my estate, he was the first TKD sambonim in my state and city, right now he is 7th dan Black Belt.

We chat and chat about olimpic TKD and clasic TKD, about the old good days and today, the nice things we had in the past and it was very refreshing.

Master Alvite told me he still teaches TKD like he did 30 years ago and I know it's true cause I have visiting him over the years and sat and saw his class, he told me because of politics he quit the State TKD Asociation and even he was a good fighter in his youth and even national champ he does not like the way TKD is been taught this days because it's Olimpic tKD only and TKD is much more than that.

I had a wonderful time chating with my mentor and it's ggod to know we have strong feelings for each other, he is a gentelman and one of the best TKD men I Know.

Manny

Who was his Jidokwan teacher?

 

[chrispillertkd]

Manny, you may have posted the reason why before but is there any reason why you no longer train at your old Ji Do Kwan school? From this post of yours it sounds like that school might be a better fit for you than the place at which you currently train.

In any event, it's always good to see old martial art friends.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Gemini]

While I certainly enjoy sparring and will always incorporate it in my training, this sounds like my kind of school. Why did you quit training there, Manny?

 

[andyjeffries]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't like to be teaching the same way I do now in 40 years. I don't even stretch or wam students up the same way I did 10 years ago, let alone how it will be 40 years from now! Things change...

 

[mastercole]

Maybe it's just me, but I wouldn't like to be teaching the same way I do now in 40 years. I don't even stretch or wam students up the same way I did 10 years ago, let alone how it will be 40 years from now! Things change...

Right, why go backwards.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

You don't fix what isn't broken. 'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking. Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product. I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.

 

[Jaeimseu]

You don't fix what isn't broken. 'New and Improved' is often a marketing scam, generally speaking. Having a quality product, and maintaining a quality product isn't going backwards, it is after all, a quality product. I feel sorry for the newer TKD students of today that never had an exposure to that quality product.

Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon. I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon. I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."

Fair enough. What would you consider as an improvement?

 

[Jaeimseu]

Were sparring (or, for that matter, any single aspect of the training in our club) to become our primary focus, I expect I would lose interest in TKD altogether. I like having a balanced program.

I would think you would lose interest in your club, as opposed to losing interest in taekwondo.

 

[mastercole]

Seeking to improve something is not the same as "fixing" something, though. Something doesn't have to be broken to be improved upon. I don't think I would characterize modern training methods as a marketing scam. Armies don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. Athletes don't train the same now as they did 40 years ago. There are many good reasons for that. That's not to say that people can't get the results they're looking for by training "old school," but I don't think it's fair to dismiss newer methods of training simply because one feels that the old way wasn't "broken."

Excellent point, but it is hard for some people to understand what you are saying, especially if they never trained in the modern training methods. Training like they did 40 or 50 years ago is really just from a lack of experience and not knowing any better.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Fair enough. What would you consider as an improvement?

I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before.

I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Excellent point, but it is hard for some people to understand what you are saying, especially if they never trained in the modern training methods. Training like they did 40 or 50 years ago is really just from a lack of experience and not knowing any better.

Your making assumptions Al, based upon your own limited experience. I've trained in both venues, I see the greater value in the old school methods. Particularly based upon my motivations in training i.e. SD. Old school TKD is much closer to Japanese/Okiwnawan Karate, which I have experience in as well. And though some branches of Karate have 'modernized', many remain true and consistant to the source.

 

[mastercole]

I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before.

I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.

And it continues to improve, which is a good thing and is within it's self truly self defense oriented. It also opens the door for full contact training to non-competitors alike, which is the pinnacle of self defense training.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I think there are any number of improvements that have been made. I think a lot of these improvements have to do with the way we train to get the results we desire. I know many people here don't like to mix the word sports with taekwondo, but modern sport specific training methods for developing strength and speed (among other things) enable modern athletes to develop specific skills much more safely and efficiently than in the past. I think the proof is in the pudding, so to speak. I believe humans today (with very few exceptions) are bigger, stronger, faster, and more skilled than ever before, because they eat, sleep, and train differently than before.

I don't think just any change in the way things are done can always be called an improvement, but the modern way of training that I am talking about has been tested and tested again. Say what you will about sports or competition, but the results of the training will be plain to see. If it works, it works.

Can you be more specific? Perhaps, as you mention in regards to sport. Though it seems the rules change. But from the perspective of why the martial arts were created, I see modern TKD'ist at a distinct disadvantage vs. those that train old school. Old school had grappling, throws, chokes, locks and a ground component, the same as Karate. I don't see modern TKD adept in these areas unless the instructor happens to toss a few things in here and there.

In regards to strength, actually this is more due to modern chemistry. In the past, considering natural athletes, they were much stronger pound for pound due to old school training methods. Methods which are seeing a resurgance in popularity because of there effectiveness.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

It also opens the door for full contact training to non-competitors alike, which is the pinnacle of self defense training.

Actually, you're wrong on this point. It is not the pinnacle of SD training, rather the methodology is the factor. You need to stop confusing the two entities as it is a disservice to those that honestly which to learn SD as a goal in their training.