Oh...My...Goodness! Hybrids anyone?

[Rich Parsons]

Some interesting reading.....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050813/ap_on_hi_te/hybrid_tinkerers;_ylt=AmaROX6.SAO7vp9522mkiiUPLBIF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl


Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg

CORTE MADERA, Calif. - Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.
Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter.

I think this is a great idea, and is not only being done at Toyota, it is being done by all the car companies. Some are even working together to try to get there faster.

As to the $3000 per car, I thought I read at the bottom about $150,000 per car was spent but that they think an additional $6,000 in mass production would be the cost.

As to the additional batteries, there is the consideration of the initial charge, and where did it come from? There is also the consider of where do you dispose of these batteries when they are no longer functional? Are they Lead batteries that are used today, and the numbers are a lot that are needed, and to increase the performance or maintain the performance.

The Lead is a disposal issue.

The Electricity which is mostly generated in the USA by burning coal, which contains sulfur, is not good for the enviroment. The new systems/hybrids use a regen method to capture energy, and recharge the batteries so pluggin into your house is not required anymore which is great, but still the initial charge and disposal are a concern.

All I am saying is that it is not as cheap as people make it out to be. Nor is it as green. Look at the complete system and understand it, and then make your choice.

I think that Hybrids, are a great idea and if choose to buy becuase you want to be more green, and help the environment, then I thank you, and agree with that philosophy.

Yet, if you think you are saving money, and or there are no other considers with the new system, then more education is required.

 

[Sapper6]

Full article at FoxNews.Com

Experimental Hybrid Cars Get Up to 250 Mpg

Politicians and automakers say a car that can both reduce greenhouse gases and free America from its reliance on foreign oil is years or even decades away. Ron Gremban says such a car is parked in his garage.

It looks like a typical Toyota Prius hybrid, but in the trunk sits an 80-miles-per-gallon secret — a stack of 18 brick-sized batteries that boosts the car's high mileage with an extra electrical charge so it can burn even less fuel.

Gremban, an electrical engineer and committed environmentalist, spent several months and $3,000 tinkering with his car.

Like all hybrids, his Prius increases fuel efficiency by harnessing small amounts of electricity generated during braking and coasting. The extra batteries let him store extra power by plugging the car into a wall outlet at his home in this San Francisco suburb — all for about a quarter.

He's part of a small but growing movement. "Plug-in" hybrids aren't yet cost-efficient, but some of the dozen known experimental models have gotten up to 250 mpg.

They have support not only from environmentalists but also from conservative foreign policy hawks who insist Americans fuel terrorism through their gas guzzling.

And while the technology has existed for three decades, automakers are beginning to take notice, too.

So far, DaimlerChrysler AG is the only company that has committed to building its own plug-in hybrids, quietly pledging to make up to 40 vans for U.S. companies. But Toyota Motor Corp. officials who initially frowned on people altering their cars now say they may be able to learn from them.

"They're like the hot rodders of yesterday who did everything to soup up their cars. It was all about horsepower and bling-bling, lots of chrome and accessories," said Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman. "Maybe the hot rodders of tomorrow are the people who want to get in there and see what they can do about increasing fuel economy."

The extra batteries let Gremban drive for 20 miles with a 50-50 mix of gas and electricity. Even after the car runs out of power from the batteries and switches to the standard hybrid mode, it gets the typical Prius fuel efficiency of around 45 mpg. As long as Gremban doesn't drive too far in a day, he says, he gets 80 mpg.

"The value of plug-in hybrids is they can dramatically reduce gasoline usage for the first few miles every day," Gremban said. "The average for people's usage of a car is somewhere around 30 to 40 miles per day. During that kind of driving, the plug-in hybrid can make a dramatic difference."

Backers of plug-in hybrids acknowledge that the electricity to boost their cars generally comes from fossil fuels that create greenhouse gases, but they say that process still produces far less pollution than oil. They also note that electricity could be generated cleanly from solar power.

Gremban rigged his car to promote the nonprofit CalCars Initiative, a San Francisco Bay area-based volunteer effort that argues automakers could mass produce plug-in hybrids at a reasonable price.

But Toyota and other car companies say they are worried about the cost, convenience and safety of plug-in hybrids — and note that consumers haven't embraced all-electric cars because of the inconvenience of recharging them like giant cell phones.

 

[ginshun]

That is very disturbing. I was aware that China will become our largest petroleum consumption competitor. Considering the sizeable population of China, that is somewhat worrisome (if only from an environmental point of view; not pondering the military implications).

What is really scary, environmentally speaking, is the fact that Chinese cars are about 20 years behind US cars when it comes to emmisions standards.

 

[Rich Parsons]

What is really scary, environmentally speaking, is the fact that Chinese cars are about 20 years behind US cars when it comes to emmisions standards.
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Korean and Japan are at the same levels as the North American and European Countries. China with the new vehicles being built and imported have and will continue to have improved emissions over the older vehicles. Everything being built or imported in the last couple of years meets the European standards for emissions.

The US and European countries continual roll out plans to have better emissions as time goes by, so, this may put China one level behind European countries now or in the near future. More likely they will be the same, as it is easier to say meet Euro Standards and then have the car companies build all Euro Cars to go to China, instead of having separate part numbers, to meet older standard to send to China.

China is coming up to speed real fast.

 

[Phoenix44]

I drove up to a gas station in the middle of the day ($2.56/gal), and as I was pulling up to the pump the guy was raising the price!

(I didn't hit him)

 

[KenpoEMT]

(I didn't hit him)

:rofl:




Well, the station that I usually fill up at has raised the price EVERY SINGLE DAY since I first posted this thread. Was paying $2.09. When I filled up today I paid $2.37 at the same station. My brother filled up yesterday at a station in the next town down the highway and paid $2.59. This is driving (no pun intended) me nuts!

I wonder if the oil comapany's corporate vehicles are hybrids... :lol:

 

[Rich Parsons]

All across south east Michigan it went from $2.599 a gallon to $2.799

And then this guys tells me that the fuel on the lake On Sunday was $2.009

I told him he should have filled up there and also filled up his car and lawn mower and ...

 

[Jonathan Randall]

Ha! I have a little Geo Metro. It gets nearly as good mileage as my old moped did...

However, if I were in a high speed accident, I would not have the survivability of an SUV. Families with small children have to keep this in mind as there are more important things than saving a few dollars on gas each week.

I'd like to see a re-emphasis on fuel efficiency among automakers. I have nothing against larger vehicles and I think with some work they probably could be made more fuel efficient.

I paid nearly five dollars today for a gallon and a half of gas. Fortunately this will get me to work and back for several days. LOL.

My feeling is that hybrids, while promising, are not quite there yet. Still, if I were in the market for a new car I would definitely be doing some research on them right now.

 

[Rich Parsons]

My feeling is that hybrids, while promising, are not quite there yet. Still, if I were in the market for a new car I would definitely be doing some research on them right now.

I agree with this.

I talked to a guy last night and he was all up about corn oil running in Diesels, and that for a couple fo grand they can be converted, and something like two years to get the infrastructure in place to distribute. I think it will take longer but that is my opinion. Not sure of the MPG ratings, will do more investigation.

As to Ethanol, my personal experience is that the E85 which is 85 % Gas, gives slightly less MPG than no ethanol at all. Some of the trucks I know others have driven with the E15 fuel which is 15 % Gas and 85% Ethanol, and the MPG goes way down, from 17 mpg to 8 to 10 mpg. Yet the Ethanol is something that we can grow.

Alternative fuels such as fuel cells are in the research and could be a very important way to change the overall market.

No one is standing still on this, if a large company does not have somehting in the works, and it turns out to be the next great thing, they could go out of business trying to get caught up. Hence joint development programs to save money and share technology.

Oh well still ranting and back to other stuff now.

 

[MisterMike]

Gas would be so much cheaper if they would just leave off that darn 9/10 ths of a cent from their prices.

 

[Rich Parsons]

A link to a diesel forum, yet the main page has some information on new legislation, and the links (* have not checked them all, look like you can learn more about Diesel and what the Governement is doing.

http://www.dieselforum.org/

Check it out.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Another link that talks about other future work in progress.

http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=42578

 

[Rich Parsons]

Also about hybrids in general, the MPG rating test is windows closed, and no AC or other loads on the vehicle. If you are serious about getting on, check out the repair costs and the MPG actually. Assk to take on anover night test drive, if they allow it, then check the mpg with AC or Defost (High) on and or windows down, for additional drag on the vehicle.

i.e. test drive the car like you would normally drive it, and see if the MPG is close to the sticker. The regular gas vehicles are off also, but are much closer.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Check this link out as well: http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=45180

 

[Rich Parsons]

And some more information as well:

http://www.defenddemocracy.org/publications/publications_show.htm?doc_id=282100

 

[Rich Parsons]

From the Detroit News


This article talks about Horse Power and how the Japaneses in particular Toyota and Honda, are hurt by the new standard. Previously there were many places to measure horse power, at the Crank Chaft, or the Fly Wheel, or the output from the Transmission or the output from the rear end or final drive (* Front wheel drive *), or to the wheels.

Just more data, on how the smaller companies including the Germans not just the Japanese were held to different standards or were allowed to use different methods, and then advertise.

I know the company I work for did the at the Wheel and also rounded down to the nearest '5' unit to guarentee our numbers.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

Forgive me if someone posted this before...250 mpg prototypes.

http://premium.cnn.com/2005/TECH/08/15/hybrid.tinkerers.ap/


And a hydrogen motorcycle that would get me to Buffalo from Indianapolis on one tank and for a $1.50 and five pounds of hydrogen. It goes on sale next year.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8228479/


I suppose you could get digital speakers mounted on it for that "vrooom vroom" sound. Oh...and my wife allready said I'm not allowed to buy one.

I was reading a book recently that talked about the net energy of hydrogen over gasoline. I recall that it was, pound for pound, well over double the potential kilojoules. I loaned the book out otherwise I'd reference it.

Some question whether the infrastructure for hydrogen is in place...a temporary one allready exists if they can find a way to store it safely...just about every quick stop gas station here stocks propane. We could buy our hydrogen off the shelves stick the tank on our bike/car, and drive on. We could get our hydrogen at Wal-Mart.

Plug in models could, I suppose, convert electrical energy into hydrogen by using water...I don't know how they'd do that safely. They write about that in the second article. I don't doubt its feasable and potentially safe if they figure out how to keep the stuff somewhat inert in storage.

I wonder what would happen to the economies of the oil producing nations were we to make that shift? Maybe terrorists would have to have bake sales to buy bombs.


Regards,


Steve

 

[OUMoose]

Maybe terrorists would have to have bake sales to buy bombs.

Why, when every vehicle in production would be 10 times the bomb they are today? Think about a little minature Hindenburg-waiting-to-happen in the trunk of every car/truck on the road...

 

[dubljay]

Why, when every vehicle in production would be 10 times the bomb they are today? Think about a little minature Hindenburg-waiting-to-happen in the trunk of every car/truck on the road...

They have been looking for ways to store the hydrogen in a more or less inernt form as sodium borohydrate. Simply react the NABH(4) which is an aequeas mixture with water and hyrdogen gas is produced. The only downside is the cost of sodium borohydrate, though there are alternative compunds (the names of which escape me at the moment). Having an inter form of hydrogen would be the best method of storage in my opinion, and having it as an aequeous mixture would keep fuel stations more or less the same, no specialized training or equipment required.

curde google search turned up this webpage (most of this is memory from working with alterative energy projects in college) http://www.princeton.edu/~chm333/2002/spring/FuelCells/H_storage.shtml

Anyway just my thoughts on hydrogen fuel cells

-Josh

 

[hemi]

Talking about the price of gas, when it broke the $2.50 a gal mark in Dallas I told the wife something has to give. It kills me to get rid of my Dodge Ram 1500 4x4 with a hemi but at 10 mpg in the city and 14 on the road. And my wife drives a Jeep Liberty 4x4 that on a good day will get 17mpg I started thinking time to downsize. We looked on the internet and I asked my Dad (he works for an extended warranty company) what cars seem to have less breakdowns. He said go with a Hyundai. To make a long story short I traded in the Jeep and the Hemi and dropped my payments by a little bit, I dropped my gas bill every month from around $500 to around $250 maybe less I just got the new cars today.. And now I have two cars with 100k mile warranties and both get around 33 miles to the gal.