Officer Convicted In Train Station Shooting

[MJS]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_train_station_shooting

LOS ANGELES – A white former transit officer was convicted of involuntary manslaughter Thursday in the videotaped shooting death of an unarmed black man on an Oakland train platform in an encounter that set off days of rioting in the city.
Prosecutors had wanted [COLOR=#366388 !important][COLOR=#366388 !important]Johannes [COLOR=#366388 !important]Mehserle[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] convicted of murdering 22-year-old Oscar Grant, who was shot once in the back as he lay face-down.
The jury's conviction on the lesser charge raised concerns of a repeat of the unrest that followed the shooting on New Year's Day in 2009.
At least five bystanders videotaped the incident in what was among the most racially polarizing cases in California since four Los Angeles officers were acquitted in 1992 in the beating of [COLOR=#366388 !important][COLOR=#366388 !important]Rodney [COLOR=#366388 !important]King[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR].

Suprisingly enough, the protesters were pretty peaceful. Thoughts on the case? The verdict?

Just as a sidenote, I would like to ask that anyone posting, please keep this discussion civil. If you're going to resort to name calling and cop bashing, please dont bother to post.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My comment?

Good. Should have been murder though.

 

[edudley]

Verdict was good, just the wrong level.

I disagree with Bob though should have been voluntary manslaughter, if he was thinking he was pulling his taser in a quick action, may not have had time to think wow this feels a bit different before pulling the trigger.

Then again, I have never been in the heat of the moment with my life on the line like he felt he was. I could second guess him, but I won't. He had a spotless service record and made the ultimate mistake, he'll live with that the rest of his life.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Aren't tasers worn on the left, and guns on the right side?

 

[Archangel M]

Aren't tasers worn on the left, and guns on the right side?

I heard that he was wearing it weak side belt but it could be cross drawn, which if that was how he trained to draw could cause a problem. We wear them on weak side thigh holsters.

This would not be the first time someone was shot and/or killed due to a Taser-Pistol mix up.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Yes, well, in that case, I can understand why the jury went for the lesser charge.

If the officer has indeed a good record, I cannot imagine he would knowingly shoot a man in the back if he was lying down. Because if he actually intended to do it, it would mean he thought about it. And if he had thought about it, he would have known that there was no way he was not going to end up in court on a murder charge.

 

[Thesemindz]

I'm guessing that if some blacks civilians forced a white police officer to lay down on the ground and then shot him in the back in public, the verdict would have been different.

If a man can not tell the difference between a taser and a gun before murdering an innocent civilian, he should never have been entrusted with either.


-Rob

 

[Bruno@MT]

I'm guessing that if some blacks civilians forced a white police officer to lay down on the ground and then shot him in the back in public, the verdict would have been different.

If a man can not tell the difference between a taser and a gun before murdering an innocent civilian, he should never have been entrusted with either.


-Rob

It must be great to be infallible. How do you do it?

Had you just said a black cop performing an arrest with the white person on the ground reaching inside his pocket, ... THEN you might have had a valid comparison. But instead you build a straw man argument that is a complete distortion of the situation. An yes, I think the outcome of my comparison would have been similar, all things considering. And in your argument, it would be murder, just like if a group of white men would force a black cop to lie on the ground after which they shoot him.

That said, if you are determined to make this a race issue, don't let reason and honest arguments stand in your way.

 

[Thesemindz]

It must be great to be infallible. How do you do it?

Had you just said a black cop performing an arrest with the white person on the ground reaching inside his pocket, ... THEN you might have had a valid comparison. But instead you build a straw man argument that is a complete distortion of the situation. An yes, I think the outcome of my comparison would have been similar, all things considering. And in your argument, it would be murder, just like if a group of white men would force a black cop to lie on the ground after which they shoot him.

That said, if you are determined to make this a race issue, don't let reason and honest arguments stand in your way.

You misunderstand me, I don't think it's a race issue at all, I think it's a cop issue, those just happened to be the races involved. But the OP asked that we not engage in cop bashing, so I guess that's all I have to say about that.

As far as being infallible, I am not. I also don't point guns at innocent civilians, and I've never murdered one. If you're ok saying "accidents happen," fine. I am not. I feel if one is going to command lethal force, one bears the full respondibility of that decision. If you do not, then you and I will gain nothing from this exchange.

Good day.


-Rob

 

[Archangel M]

Kitsap County, Washington – On June 22, 2006, in Navy Yard City, Bremerton, Kitsap County Sheriff Deputy Tiffany Dobbins shot her firearm when she intended to use her TASER that she wore on her strong side. William A. Jones, 32, had been acting delusional in a tree for five hours prior to Deputy Dobbins’ arrival. Jones had been unsuccessfully by another deputy on the scene, but Jones was able to remove the probes and then he climbed higher in the tree. After the failed attempt Deputy Dobbins was verbally requested to deploy her TASER on Jones, and she responded by accidentally shooting Jones once in the leg. Her immediate reaction was “Oh my God, oh my God, what did I do?” Criminal charges were considered by the Office of the Attorney General of Washington but after a lengthy investigation they declined to prosecute Dobbins.

Madera, California – On October 27, 2002, a City of Madera police officer who was carrying her black M26 TASER on the strong side, shot and accidentally killed Everardo Torres, 24, who was already handcuffed. Officer Marcy Noriega, said, “I put the ****ing TASER on he wrong side,” after she realized she shot the suspect with her firearm. She also stated, “please don’t die, please don’t die,” as Torres was being treated for his wound. Officer Torres had a prior incident in which she confused her TASER and her Glock when she was first issued the M26 model. Witnesses heard officer Noriega warn Torres that she was going to use her TASER if he continued to kick the inside of the patrol car. She wore her M26 TASER on the thigh holster on the same side as Glock semiautomatic pistol bellow her firearm. Also her gun and TASER were both equipped with the red laser sights.

Somerset County, Maryland – On October 20, 2003, Frederick P. Henry was fleeing arrest from Somerset County Deputy Sheriff Robert Purnell when he reached back to unholster his black TASER M26, but then drew and fired his gun at Henry. Purnell claims that he had mistakenly grabbed his Glock .40-caliber handgun when he shot Henry in the elbow. On the scene, Deputy Purnell told Henry and other witnesses that he used the wrong weapon which he had on his strong side.

Victoria, British Columbia, Canada – Daniel Hammond, 25, was shot in the abdomen by Constable Mike Miller on September 10, 2005. Hammond had reportedly caused a disturbance outside a restaurant and resisted when police attempted to arrest him. Miller reached for his X26 TASER to subdue Hammond but came up with his Glock and shot Hammond. Miller had been wearing the TASER on his weak side, but after he first pulled out the TASER he returned it to a cargo pocket on his strong side when he was attempting to handcuff Hammond. When Hammond continued to resist, Miller thought he was drawing TASER when he shot Hammond. Interim Police Chief Bill Naughton said the force has since replaced the model of TASER used in 2005 with ones that don’t feel the same as the Glock handgun.

Sacramento, California – On March 10, 2001, Sacramento Police officer Officer Thomas Shrum shot Steven Yount in the left buttock while four officers were trying to subdue and transport him to jail following his arrest for driving under the influence of alcohol (DUI). As Yount, who was handcuffed and in leg restraints, struggled, squirmed and kicked the inside of the police car, Officer Shrum, intending to draw and fire his TASER© gun, instead pulled out and discharged his nine-millimeter pistol. Immediately after the shooting, Shrum exclaimed, “Oh God, I shot, I shot.” Shrum was armed with an M26 TASER at the time and had to be consoled after the shooting and expressed concern about the suspect at the time who survived.

Rochester, Minneapolis – On September 2, 2002 Officer Greg Siem was having trouble subduing a Sudanese refugee, Christopher Atak, who was under arrest for being drunk and disorderly. When Siem pulled out what he thought was his TASER, he in fact pulled out his firearm and shot once into the man’s back puncturing his intestine, colon and gall bladder. Immediately after the shooting, Officer Siem called an ambulance and apologized to Atak who survived the shooting. According to court documents, “Officer Siem attempted to use a reasonable amount of force to detain an individual who was actively resisting arrest…In a tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving situation, there is absolutely nothing excessive about Officer Siem’s actions,” wrote his attorney. This is where Mehserle’s attorney Michael Rain’s apparently formulated their defense, because on multiple occasions throughout the trial, Rains has told the jury that Mehserle’s mistake was a result of a “tense and rapidly evolving situation.” Siem had drawn his TASER from a cargo pocket on his strong side.

 

[Archangel M]

I'm guessing that if some blacks civilians forced a white police officer to lay down on the ground and then shot him in the back in public, the verdict would have been different.

If we are playing "what if" games. I wonder if there would have been riots if the civilians were found innocent? :shrug:

 

[Archangel M]

Yes, well, in that case, I can understand why the jury went for the lesser charge.

If the officer has indeed a good record, I cannot imagine he would knowingly shoot a man in the back if he was lying down. Because if he actually intended to do it, it would mean he thought about it. And if he had thought about it, he would have known that there was no way he was not going to end up in court on a murder charge.

My thought exactly. This wasn't him alone in some abandoned field at 3AM. This was in a crowded area while he was being filmed. If this was intentional and with malice aforethought this cop would have to be clinically insane.

 

[Thesemindz]

Thanks for proving my point Archangel.


-Rob

 

[Empty Hands]

Kitsap County, Washington – On June 22, 2006...

Remarkable. Something about the mental situation of using a taser is obviously similar in muscle memory to firing a gun (for obvious reasons). Perhaps the taser could be re-designed to make the experience less "gun-like" so the situations will not be confused in quick muscle memory situations.

 

[jks9199]

My comment?

Good. Should have been murder though.

Murder requires "malice aforethought." While there was a clear intent to use force, an officer is justified in using force. You have to go further to prove an official use of force was murderous. (Note, please, that I am NOT saying it is impossible.)

Manslaughter seems an appropriate charge and conviction, based on the press coverage. My suspicion is that the involuntary designation was a bit of a nod to the circumstances.

And, of course, the verdict was greeted by rioting. 'Cause that's how we express our displeasure or pleasure today in the US: we riot when the team wins, we riot when a jury renders a verdict we don't like... Soon, we'll probably riot because the riot didn't go well enough.

 

[jks9199]

Aren't tasers worn on the left, and guns on the right side?

It depends on agency policy. I don't know how he was carrying it, but many agencies do require it to be carried on the weak side, either in a cross draw or for a weak side draw followed by (ideally, in this mode of carry) a hand transition, creating multiple opportunities to be certain which weapon you are presenting.

 

[jks9199]

Remarkable. Something about the mental situation of using a taser is obviously similar in muscle memory to firing a gun (for obvious reasons). Perhaps the taser could be re-designed to make the experience less "gun-like" so the situations will not be confused in quick muscle memory situations.

The Taser has been intentionally designed to be "gunlike" in operation. By doing so, it is not necessary to teach yet another skill to try to apply in a very chaotic situation. Instead, skills an officer has already been taught and practiced fairly extensively are employed.

That said -- the bright yellow model of the X26 is easily, visually and tactilely different from a firearm. I'm a fan of that choice... along with weak side carry.

One thing I noted in the incidents that Archangel posted: in many cases, the mistake came as a result of transitioning back and forth between force levels, and placing the Taser in an unusual place.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Aren't tasers worn on the left, and guns on the right side?

AFTER this incident they damnwell are( this was the incident that pretty much made the policy nationwide).

 

[MJS]

Aren't tasers worn on the left, and guns on the right side?

Where I work, the taser is on the opposite side of their gun. If the officer is left handed, the gun will be on the left, taser on the right, in a cross-carry position. There are smaller ones now that can be attached to the gun belt.

 

[Sukerkin]

Would it be impractical to wear the tazer in a different place entirely e.g. at the left chest with the butt down for a right-hand draw?

That way the draw would be different enough for officers not to mix lethal and non-lethal up when they are under stress?