Obama not respecting the flag? Big deal or not?

[MBuzzy]

No, it isn't a shallow gesture. The flag is a symbol of the country and the people in it. By pledging allegiance, one demonstrates one's willingness to ally with one's neighbors in order to keep the nation strong. By denying that allegiance, one is stating that he will not do his part, does not consider himself part of the whole, and chooses not to participate in the give/take nature of that society - the rights afforded and the responsibilities expected. Most of the nu-patriots I see sure seem comfortable with the taking, though.

You can define patriotism however you like, but AFAIC your definition means that, should something happen to you, you stand alone.

So by that logic, it is not possible to be patriotic or be a part of our country if you DO NOT pledge to the flag? Isn't our country founded on the ideal that we have the freedom to choose? I feel that the flag is the very symbol of our right NOT to pledge allegiance to it. In America, if you do not like the government, fine! Go tell everyone you know, make web pages about it, get on TV. No problem. If you don't want to sing the national anthem, don't. If you don't want to pledge, don't. You have that right and though some may downgrade you for it, it is still your right and in my opinion, doesn't make you less patriotic.

How long has it been since you actually stood and SAID the pledge of allegiance? I'm active duty military and it has probably been AT LEAST 10 years for me. Probably not since high school. So am I less patriotic? Does that mean that I no longer feel and allegiance to my country?

And by that standard....if I didn't have allegiance to this country, that is the beaty of living here. Even if you don't agree with the masses, even if you DON'T have allegiance, you will not stand alone. Those who hate the US, hate living here, hate our government, etc are still afforded the same freedoms and rights and our military will continue to fight for their freedom to feel that way. Whether you unite with your neighbors or not, the nation is strong and will continue to be. If something happens to you, you are still a citizen and do not stand alone. No matter what your personal convictions are. Look at any major tragedies our country has endured....how many times has ANYONE stopped to ask "Whoa.....was this guy patriotic enough to remember or care about? Did he say the pledge of allegiance?"

The way I see it.....the right to NOT participate is the very thing that the flag represents. And for that matter, it represents your right to say that those who DON'T salute the flag are jerks!

 

[MBuzzy]

And don't let me be misunderstood - I will be the first to stop someone who is denigrating our flag. I've served on numerous colorguards....and honor the flag accordingly at all times.

But the meaning to me goes beyond the symbol and beyond a pledge....and TO ME, that meaning is that while you are an American, you are free to hold whatever beliefs you see fit.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I just cannot support a man that will not show proper respect to the flag, sorry I'm just odd that way.

I would slap him if I ever saw him disrespecting out national ensign.
SLAP HIM RIGHT IN THE FACE!!! (affect Dane Cook voice)

Anyone that attempts to become CiC needs to have at least an equal respect for our flag that our military has. Period.

 

[MBuzzy]

I would slap him if I ever saw him disrespecting out national ensign.
SLAP HIM RIGHT IN THE FACE!!! (affect Dane Cook voice)

Anyone that attempts to become CiC needs to have at least an equal respect for our flag that our military has. Period.

I think that's the point though.....does this one instance mean that he doesn't respect the flag or country?

I will vote for our next President based on their politics. Period. I don't feel that he has anything to prove in the realm of patriotism. One lapse doesn't make him any less respectful.

Now on the other hand, in terms of PR....bad move. The guy's in the spotlight ALL THE TIME. He's running for office, this was a pretty big oversight. I'm sure that he knows how it has affected him...I'd really love to hear his truthful, un-media adjusted take on this.

 

[Doc_Jude]

I wear a wedding band and care for it diligently - but I am not married to *it.* My name is a series of symbols standing for sounds which in combination form the sound of my name - but those sounds are not who I am. Nevertheless it is my name and associated with me.

The flag, too, is a symbol and the red stripes in the US flag stand for blood that was shed to earn our freedom from tyranny (only to offer it up again to a new world tyranny - er, I mean "order").

No one honors a piece of cloth. We honor all the symbol stands for - blood shed, pure new start, lives lost or changed forever.

I cannot visit millions and millions of graves. I cannot say millions and millions of prayers. I cannot sign millions and millions of thank you notes. I cannot write millions of letters to my congressmen, representatives, I cannot say "Thank You" enough - but I can honor the one all-encompassing symbol of all these things. I can take care of it. I can help dispose of it honorably when no longer serviceable. I can refrain from degrading it by putting it on my car or hanging it from my front door.

I can honor that flag ... as a symbol of all that it is.

I can't look at pictures of our Iwo Jima Memorial without tearing up, just a little. I was a friggin' mess walking around the National Mall the last time I was there, the WW2, Korea, and Vietnam Memorials, I paid respect to friends of both my Dad and Stepdad, Army and Navy, & paid respect at the Vietnam Womens Memorial.

How can I possibly vote for a man that doesn't respect the national ensign, made up of stars and stripes that are symbolic of the 13 original colonies of this country and the now 50 unified states that he would presume to lead as president?

One Answer: I CAN'T.

 

[MBuzzy]

I can't look at look at pictures of our Iwo Jima Memorial without tearing up, just a little. I was a friggin' mess walking around the National Mall the last time I was there, the WW2, Korea, and Vietnam Memorials, I paid respect to friends of both my Dad and Stepdad, army and navy, & paid respect at the Vietnam Womens Memorial.

How can I possibly vote for a man that doesn't respect the national ensign, made up of stars and stripes that are symbolic of the 13 original colonies of this country and the now 50 unified states that he would presume to lead as president?

One Answer: I CAN'T.

And I agree whole heartedly. On all counts.

The question is....does this one event mean that he doesn't respect the country or flag? Look at the multitude of pictures of times when he WAS saluting the flag. What of those?

 

[Doc_Jude]

I think that's the point though.....does this one instance mean that he doesn't respect the flag or country?

I will vote for our next President based on their politics. Period. I don't feel that he has anything to prove in the realm of patriotism. One lapse doesn't make him any less respectful.

I think that anyone that is going to put our Men & Women in Uniform in harm's way better damn well be a patriot, & it should be apparent in his actions.

Now on the other hand, in terms of PR....bad move. The guy's in the spotlight ALL THE TIME. He's running for office, this was a pretty big oversight. I'm sure that he knows how it has affected him...I'd really love to hear his truthful, un-media adjusted take on this.

I agree, I'd be willing to listen to any justification that he would have for behaving like that.

I won't be voting for Obama for other reasons, though, namely his 2nd Amendment & Gun Rights stance (which is crap, btw)

 

[shesulsa]

I've missed saluting and pledging before - in a moment so urgent it could not be interrupted. One time? No problem.

But ...

... what was he so busy doing in that photo? Now, see, if he were on the toilet or arms full of baby or helping hold someone up or were vomiting ... I could see missing it then and quite forgivably so.

I'm just trying to figure out was he was doing in that picture that so precluded him from saluting? That's my question.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Old news I know, and this is probably just another example of the media making a mountain out of a molehill.

But to see the picture was actually unsettling to me. I didn't pay these stories any mind until I actually looked at the photo.

Thoughts? (actually look at the picture, then tell us what you think...)

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/o/obama-salute.htm

I have not read the thread responses yet so if others have said this then I guess take it as another vote.

I think they all are disrespecting the Flag. None of them turned around to face it. What was so important for any of them not to turn around and respect the flag?

 

[diamondbar1971]

What is so ironic about this whole thing is, all of the freedoms and all of our ideals and all of the good things we get to enjoy in this great country, gives him and everyone else the right to not salute, respect or even acknowledge our flag etc., and if all of this is true about what freedom and our flag stands for, then we really can't get all over him about it, because that is his right; we may not like it or agree with it, but he does have that right and its our right not to vote for him if you don't like him for doing that.

 

[michaeledward]

I can't look at pictures of our Iwo Jima Memorial without tearing up, just a little. I was a friggin' mess walking around the National Mall the last time I was there, the WW2, Korea, and Vietnam Memorials, I paid respect to friends of both my Dad and Stepdad, Army and Navy, & paid respect at the Vietnam Womens Memorial.

How can I possibly vote for a man that doesn't respect the national ensign, made up of stars and stripes that are symbolic of the 13 original colonies of this country and the now 50 unified states that he would presume to lead as president?

One Answer: I CAN'T.

So, if Mr. Obama is elected the President of the United States in November, I am guessing we can look forward to the big, bold, red font, "he ain't my President" attacks for his term in office.

Seems to me, that President Clinton was given short shrift from the military when he took office. I suppose there is no reason to expect any difference this time around.

And, if Mrs. Clinton wins the office, I'm certain there will be reasons why people will tells us they can't possibly show respect to her, if she "presumes" to lead.

 

[Empty Hands]

I think that anyone that is going to put our Men & Women in Uniform in harm's way better damn well be a patriot, & it should be apparent in his actions.

Well, it's the second part that is the kicker. Bush 43 was as outwardly patriotic as anyone could wish. He practically drowned himself in American flags at some points. Yet, as your own signature indicates, that hasn't prevented him from foolishly putting "Men & Women in Uniform in harm's way."

Outward signs of patriotism, especially when everyone else is doing it and expects if of you, is meaningless. It is actions that are important.

 

[shesulsa]

I have not read the thread responses yet so if others have said this then I guess take it as another vote.

I think they all are disrespecting the Flag. None of them turned around to face it. What was so important for any of them not to turn around and respect the flag?

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think they were disrespecting the flag by turning their back on it - they appear to be looking at another flag in the distance ... perhaps one on a pole?? If that's the case, then they're saluting the flag appropriately. And I'm fairly certain the flag behind them all is displayed inappropriately.

I'll venture on over the American Legion site and find out when I have a chance.

 

[Jade Tigress]

But a symbol is a stand-in for something else. It's a pointer by reference. So you're not actually pledging allegiance to physical piece of cloth but to that which represented by it.

That's what I was getting at. By asking what flag he pledges allegiance to, I was implying where does his loyalty lie? Allegiance to the flag, as Geo pointed out in her example with wedding rings, is symbolic. It has nothing to do with the cloth. Obama is a very charismatic, articulate, and intelligent man (from the little I've seen of him), so I do have to echo grydth's statement regarding what Obama himself has to say about it.

 

[Flying Crane]

Well, it's the second part that is the kicker. Bush 43 was as outwardly patriotic as anyone could wish. He practically drowned himself in American flags at some points. Yet, as your own signature indicates, that hasn't prevented him from foolishly putting "Men & Women in Uniform in harm's way."

Outward signs of patriotism, especially when everyone else is doing it and expects if of you, is meaningless. It is actions that are important.

and let's not forget mr. Bush's abandonment of his own stateside military service. He couldn't even bother to finish his military obligation during time of war, even tho it was a cushy, safe, stateside assignment. Yet, as you point out, he practically drowns himself in the flag, and points at his own chest and says "hey everyone, look how patriotic I am!"

Actions, my good friends, speak louder than words.

 

[MBuzzy]

I think that anyone that is going to put our Men & Women in Uniform in harm's way better damn well be a patriot, & it should be apparent in his actions.

I agree, I'd be willing to listen to any justification that he would have for behaving like that.

I won't be voting for Obama for other reasons, though, namely his 2nd Amendment & Gun Rights stance (which is crap, btw)[/quote]

Well, unfortunately, whoever is in office is sending troops into harms way. Can't be avoided. It doesn't matter what their Iraq withdrawl strategy is - we're there and we will be for a while.

And that is the point....does this one action, though not a good choice, make him unpatriotic? I think not. As far as I'm concerned, running for president is pretty patriotic. Believe it or not, it isn't an easy job. Devoting your ENTIRE life, every part of your life to your country is pretty patriotic.

I won't be voting for Obama for other reasons, though, namely his 2nd Amendment & Gun Rights stance (which is crap, btw)

Now that I agree with too. If you're going to make a decision to vote or not vote on a candidate, make it on their issues and how you think they will do for the country. I think it is pretty irresponsible to cast a vote based solely on one instance of not placing a hand over a heart. In the grand scheme of things, what means more.....the minute of that day or making a good choice for the future leader of country?

 

[crushing]

The picture doesn't contain enough information to know what was really going on at that moment. If the others are saluting a flag, why are they looking in different directions?

I give Sen. Obama the benefit of the doubt on this picture.

 

[shesulsa]

On the flag protocol - anyone interested can get an exhaustive lesson by reading this link. Here is the portion on pledging and the civilian salute from that page:

§4. Pledge of allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.", should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove any non-religious headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent, face the flag, and render the military salute. [See Congressional Notes re use of "under God."]
§5. Display and use of flag by civilians; codification of rules and customs; definition
The following codification of existing rules and customs pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States of America be, and it is hereby, established for the use of such civilians or civilian groups or organizations as may not be required to conform with regulations promulgated by one or more executive departments of the Government of the United States. The flag of the United States for the purpose of this chapter shall be defined according to title 4, United States Code, Chapter 1, Section 1 and Section 2 and Executive Order 10834 issued pursuant thereto.

So in the picture there are unanswered questions and several broken protocols:

• Unanswered Question #1: What are they all looking at? They are all facing the same direction so it's plausible that there is another flag - most likely on a staff - they are saluting and pleding to.
• Unanswered Question #2: What is occupying Obama's thoughts to the extent that he did not salute the flag on this occasion?
• Protocol issue #1: (Thank you Rich) If they are saluting the flag behind them, they *should* be facing that flag, but I think it's doubtful and strongly suspect what I said in Question 1.
• Protocol issue #2: The flag is not to be used for anything but a banner to be displayed and flown in an appropriate manner. The enormous flag behind the candidates is inappropriately used as a backdrop for the stage.
• Protocol issue #3: The backdrop flag - if intended to be displayed as a flag - is inappropriately suspended.
• Protocol issue #4: The backdrop flag - if intended to be displayed as a flag - is hung in the incorrect orientation.

On the Obama issue: Though I think this was a no-brainer - the anthem is playing or people are pledging, you face the darn flag, you put your hand over your heart and join in, it's hard to know all from a single snapshot - maybe he was choking back vomit, I dunno.

For those of you to whom flag protocol is meaningful, The American Flag Wall of Shame.

 

[Cruentus]

I can't look at pictures of our Iwo Jima Memorial without tearing up, just a little. I was a friggin' mess walking around the National Mall the last time I was there, the WW2, Korea, and Vietnam Memorials, I paid respect to friends of both my Dad and Stepdad, Army and Navy, & paid respect at the Vietnam Womens Memorial.

How can I possibly vote for a man that doesn't respect the national ensign, made up of stars and stripes that are symbolic of the 13 original colonies of this country and the now 50 unified states that he would presume to lead as president?

One Answer: I CAN'T.

I repped you and forgot to sign it. Well said...

 

[Cruentus]

I'm not 100% sure but I don't think they were disrespecting the flag by turning their back on it - they appear to be looking at another flag in the distance ... perhaps one on a pole?? If that's the case, then they're saluting the flag appropriately. And I'm fairly certain the flag behind them all is displayed inappropriately.

I'll venture on over the American Legion site and find out when I have a chance.

That was what I thought; that the color guard was actually the direction they were facing...