Not trying to start something but I am really not sure what to make of this

[Xue Sheng]

I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.


WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010

 

[Vajramusti]

I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.


WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010

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I have no idea.


joy chaudhuri

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Huh. I'm not a Wing Chunner, but he seems to be missing some of the structure I'm used to seeing in Wing Chun practitioners. His flow is interesting - it almost looks more like what I've seen of Systema than Wing Chun.

 

[Eric_H]

I saw this on another site and I have way to little time in training Wing Chun to judge this properly. I am not trying to start something I am just wondering what those with more experience in Wing Chun than I think about it.


WingTsun in action: GM Kernspecht in Hockenheim 2010

That clip only proves he's good at giving extremely compliant partners more energy than they give him.

I don't think what this clip shows has much, if any, combat value.

Structurally it violates center line, therefore it falls away from what WC is about. No true WC man would voluntarily give that up w/o a fight.

 

[Cyriacus]

Huh. I'm not a Wing Chunner, but he seems to be missing some of the structure I'm used to seeing in Wing Chun practitioners. His flow is interesting - it almost looks more like what I've seen of Systema than Wing Chun.

This.

The whole flow of it looked like Systema to Me, only with alot more Open Hand Work.

 

[shesulsa]

Question here: Systema is known for its lack of telegraphing, however, it has always been my understanding that as one matures in their art, they learn to flow with the movements so they are seamless and part of natural movement, hence telegraphing is reduced anyway.

Does it have to telegraph to be Wing Tsun? Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Question here: Systema is known for its lack of telegraphing, however, it has always been my understanding that as one matures in their art, they learn to flow with the movements so they are seamless and part of natural movement, hence telegraphing is reduced anyway.

Does it have to telegraph to be Wing Tsun? Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?

Nope, as far as I know Wing Chun does not telegraph nor does Taijiquan nor does Xingyiquan and Sanda does not either. But being the continual Woing Chun noob what the heck do I know. All I know is what he is doing does not look like Wing Chun to me.

 

[Brian King]

related thread FWIW including martial talk folks that know of these folks
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?83711-Students-of-GM-Kernspecht

Regards
Brian King

 

[almost a ghost]

I didn't see anything that I would call a solid demonstration of Wing Chun. Like Eric_H pointed out, the partners are overly compliant and eager to get tossed and smacked around.

Somethings that really stood out to me:
At the :22 mark he's showing counters to elbows his partner shouldn't even be attempting. Then again, I find with a lot of WT clips from Europe they seem to be very elbow happy.

At the 1:28 mark he's chi-sao'ing with students. He keeps on encroaching in on their space and at no time do I see an attempt from them to reclaim that necessary space by using foot work and get caught up chasing his hands, but at the same time they are overly compliant and seem like that just want to get smacked around.

 

[Steve]

All I know is that this is not a guy I'd want to get into a slap fight with!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Are most martial artists under the impression that only Systema is known for seamless, casual movement?

Nope. It's just the particular flavor of movement and the body dynamics in this video that look like Systema rather than Wing Chun to me.

 

[WC_lun]

The lack of structure and self breaking of the centerline concept scream it is not a traditional system of Wing Chun. Wing Chun does have flow, but not at the expense of its' other concepts.

 

[mook jong man]

I don't have the foggiest idea about Systema , but I do know Wing Chun.
The main thing that stands out to me is the lack of what we call "The Optimum Angle" or "Ultimate Angle"
The arms will roughly be in this angle all the time except when striking , the angle will contract slightly to yield under pressure when the arms are relaxed , but by and large they will generally be in this fixed angle.
It is thought to be the best angle for both attack and defence.

He seems to have dispensed with that concept along with the centerline and also opted for techniques with maybe a bit more flash but are indirect , instead of using more basic techniques that are simple and will get the job done a lot quicker with better economy.

In short he has thrown out the rules because he has been training a long time , and against low level students he can get away with it.

He would run into big problems and have to adjust his game if he were up against somebody with a decent stance , good "Forward Force", somebody who adheres to centerline theory.
They only need a slight gap to get through and then it's all over , and some of those techniques he was using allowed the centerline to be undefended.

Just to clarify , there are no "Pre - Movements in Wing Chun , nothing is telegraphed , that is a major no no.
There are no preparation movements before any attack is launched , it is just launched.

One of the purposes of Chi Sau practice is to eliminate telegraphing by only having "Forward Force.
Most Wing Chun people will work long and hard to get rid of even the slightest drawing back of the arm prior to striking .
Similarly with kicking , many hours of leg raising exercises have to practiced in order to be able to kick from the stance in a relaxed fashion without any telegraphic movement from the upper body , namely the shoulders.

 

[thepieisready]

If he is attempting Wing Chun he is doing it very poorly. I'm not trying to be mean or insulting to him, but that is horrible wing chun if it is wing chun at all. He violates centerline, he lets his elbows fly out willie-nillie, and he allows his movements to be off; some by quite a bit and some by just a few millimeters. In wing chun, a few millimeters can and do determine the complete success or failure of a move.

 

[Punchy]

On the surface I think anyone who trains any form of WC would have to agree that this does not look like WC. But isn't the goal of every MA to transcend technique?.....is this what he is doing? Is he abusing principles, or is he fully embodying those principles, having mastered the system?
I have no idea, I'm merely speculating. Ask me again in 40 years and I may have a better answer.

 

[Punchy]

One thing I will comment on though....there comes a time in every man's life when it's time to say no to skinny jeans

 

[Eric_H]

On the surface I think anyone who trains any form of WC would have to agree that this does not look like WC. But isn't the goal of every MA to transcend technique?.....is this what he is doing? Is he abusing principles, or is he fully embodying those principles, having mastered the system?
I have no idea, I'm merely speculating. Ask me again in 40 years and I may have a better answer.

Centerline maintenance is not a technique.

 

[WC_lun]

It is one thing to break a priciple, knowing why you are doing so and the risk you take. It is quite another to do so while training with a less experienced student and/or while being filmed. This guy made a claim that he is doing Wing Chun. His non-adherence to the principles of Wing Chun make it clear that he is not working within that system in this instance. This creates a huge issue. While he claims to represent the teachings of Wing Chun, he is doing something else entirely. If he had said that he is trained in Wing Chun, but in this instance he will be following the precepts of Systema, that would be completley acceptable. As he did it, he was very disrespectful to all those people that actually do respresent the various systems of Wing Chun.

 

[Punchy]

I have never met Kernspecht, but I have met and had the privelage to learn from his teacher on numerous occassions. My old si-fu and many of my si-soks are products of Kernspecht's teaching, so I know without a doubt the man knows his stuff. His understanding of WT(WC) is head and shoulders above mine, enough so, that I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in regards to this video.
Like I said, it doesn't look like WT to me either, but is it because there comes a point when a tan sau no longer necessarily looks like a tan sau, it simply disperses?

 

[WTchap]

I've also not met Mr Kernspecht, but I have heard many good things about his WT from WT people who are far better than I am. Certainly, if he came on this forum wink2: ), I am sure he would be able to explain how what he is doing follows the WT energy and fighting principles.

But... for me, this clip is very much what others have noted - it is very Systema influenced (indeed, there are other Kernspecht clips online that are even more so) and that to me moves his art away from WT. While the principles are more important than a technique alone, I still think WT should actually look like WT.

I would also agree that there might be a place for this if you are teaching very high-level WT exponents - people who already have the full system and are very expert in it, and you are looking at ways of using the WT principles in different ways. But this seminar clip has a real mix of students/grades, and I just can't see how teaching such drills and work can help someone who is not very advanced in the system.