Not trying to start something but I am really not sure what to make of this

[yak sao]

I agree that it's probably not in the best interest to muddy the waters where lower level students are concerned. I think that is one of the reasons that the biu tze form was practiced behind closed doors, as it seems to break many of the rules laid out in the earlier two forms, and they didn't want students messing up their WC that they were taught in an effort to mimic their si-hings/sifu etc.

But as we were not present at these sessions , we don't know what he was demo'ing here. Was he going to extremes, showing that ultimately, you should just be relaxed and flow? For all we know, this was followed by, or preceeded by, a very technical demo.

 

[wingerjim]

Certainly not traditional Wing Chun. His form was not based on centerline, I did not see any punches with the fist. His stance was not traditional. He seemed to strike with his elbows almost exclusively, whihc is not the Wing Chun approch.

 

[geezer]

I have never had the priviledge to meet Mr. Kernspectht either. However, my original Chinese sifu was also Keith Kernspect's sifu, and my current instructor trained closely under GM Kernspecht, so I have heard much about him over the years. The man has been in WT for a very long time and certainly knows his stuff very well. But at the same time it's quite clear that he has taken his art in a personal, and somewhat "experimental" direction. I find it interesting, and somewhat different from the "Chinese" WT I was trained in. I am not qualified to say much more.

On the other and, Fighterman has trained with Mr. Kernspecht personally, and his brother is a high ranking instructor in Mr. Kernspecht's EWTO. If you want an informed opinion, I'd ask him first.

 

[WC_lun]

Also keep in mind that there is a difference between technique and principles or concepts. Techniques can be shared from one system to another and look a myriad of different ways...even within the same system. However, principle and concept is the base of a system. If you are not adhering to those principles and concepts, then you are not practicing that system. It is fine to say when teaching, "I am breaking this precept of Wing Chun when doing this technique, but here is why." It is completley different to not perform Wing Chun, and if the principle and concepts are not folllowed it is not Wing Chun, and claim to be performing Wing Chun. That is misleading.

So now in the future someone that has been to one of these seminars breaks his own centerline or loses his structure will be taken advantage of. In his mind his Wing Chun was just proven inferior, but in reality it was not Wing Chun. So now Wing Chun gets a bad rap because of people who do not know what Wing Chun really is. This is why you must be really careful when teaching to do what you say you are doing, and make note of exceptions when they come up.

 

[WCman1976]

It has been a long time since I posted, but I had to for this one!

In one of the previous replies, someone said it doesn't look like wing chun because he violates the centerline. While you would never PURPOSELY violate the centerline, my Sifu said to me that the entire point of the Biu Jee form was what to do if you lost center...so while we don't ever want to willingly violate it, you could technically argue that he is demonstrating Biu Jee recovery techniques. However, there are certain points I call into question. The biggest example of this would be his personal space. EVen though wing chun is a close-range style, there are times when this guy gets TOO close and his arms get jammed up. Luckily, he has some willing participants. Another thing: wing chun believes in the shortest distance between two points being a straight line, but he does way too much "around the world" stuff, where his hand comes looping around an opponent's block (which of course leaves HIM wide open).

That is all I see for now. Good to be back!

 

[chinaboxer]

this is what happens when someone puts all their eggs into the "biu jee" basket. i have no idea why people think that the third form is the most advanced form of the three. it's completely opposite of the first form. there's a reason why it's called the "desperation form" or "emergency form", because well...it's what you have to rely on when your siu nim tau form sucks and your opponent has compromised your "structure".

my answer? keep developing the first form so that you never ever have to rely on the third form.

 

[mook jong man]

I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .

In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
I quote.
The main idea of Bil Gee is to transmit the power , which is generated from rotation , to the palms and fingers.
It is also intended to use the "attraction force", originating from the whirling during rotation , together with the appropriate movement of the arms and legs to achieve the state of " directing at will any external force to the centre of a vortex".

 

[WTchap]

I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .

In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
I quote. The main idea of Bil Gee is to transmit the power , which is generated from rotation , to the palms and fingers.
It is also intended to use the "attraction force", originating from the whirling during rotation , together with the appropriate movement of the arms and legs to achieve the state of " directing at will any external force to the centre of a vortex".

This sounds similar to the WT way of thinking. I haven't heard anyone from Leung Ting's line think of Biu Tse as an 'emergency' or 'desperation' form. But to be sure, the BT form does look to issue power in a different way (compared to SNT and CK).

So there are also different concepts and principles that go with this form too. I was chatting recently with a WT guy abroad and he was talking too of how BT attacks targets in a different way. In WT there is more of a whip-like motion to many of the attacks in the BT form (so using the elastic force that Leung Ting talks about), and this whip-like method often means that force is issued throughout the forearm, culminating with the wrist and fingertips. This allows some of the strikes to cut through the opponent's bridge arms while on the way to the main target.

keep developing the first form so that you never ever have to rely on the third form.

I'd agree that it's good to always try and develop/improve SNT, but in WT I'd disagree that this could help you avoid needing to use BT. For us, BT is a natural progression from CK - something that gives you different tools and ideas that build on what SNT and CK gave you.

 

[geezer]

WTchap is right on the money. And regarding the videoclip... I'd recommend reserving judgement since there is no accompanying explanation. As I said, I've trained with LT many years back, and also more recently with people who are quite close to GM Kernspecht. Based on my experience with those guys, it would be a serious mistake to write them off as somehow not understanding WC/WT/VT.

 

[WTchap]

Here's a nice, and fairly short, intro article on the Wing Tsun Biu Tze form, from Alex Richter in New York.

http://www.wingchunillustrated.com/2012/01/27/biu-tze-the-wing-tsun-perspective/

 

[WingChunIan]

I think it's mainly the Wong Shun Leung lineage that believe it to be an emergency form or desperation form .

In ours according to TST , and this is from stuff that he has written so the translation is not the best.
I quote.
The main idea of Bil Gee is to transmit the power , which is generated from rotation , to the palms and fingers.
It is also intended to use the "attraction force", originating from the whirling during rotation , together with the appropriate movement of the arms and legs to achieve the state of " directing at will any external force to the centre of a vortex".

Not just WSL mate both of Ip Man's sons also teach the same, although at the same time it also extends the power generation theories and teaches how to generate power with a straight arm (which can then be added to the power gen methods of SNT and CK). I'd love to hear more about TST's thoughts on BJ ( and CK and SNT etc if they are different)

 

[WingChunIan]

that said I'm not sure what BJ has to do with the clip. Sometimes I think folks like to use the BJ label to explain anything they don't understand.

 

[mook jong man]

Not just WSL mate both of Ip Man's sons also teach the same, although at the same time it also extends the power generation theories and teaches how to generate power with a straight arm (which can then be added to the power gen methods of SNT and CK). I'd love to hear more about TST's thoughts on BJ ( and CK and SNT etc if they are different)

I'll just summarise it and give you the main bits , it's from old photocopied notes that someone gave me years ago from a lecture that TST gave.
As I said , the translation leaves a lot to be desired.

Siu Nim Tau- The primary function of Siu Nim Tau is to use the mind to control the moves so that they can form the steady structure of an arch.
It is also with this control over the mind that straight attacks can be launched with the strength of the whole body centering at the point of attack.

Chum Kiu - The forwarding step and the turning stance of Chum Kiu together with the moves of Siu Nim Tau , if maneuvering at the same time can create driving forces of at least two different directions.
For this reason it is called the two-way force.
The main function of the two-way force is to off balance the opponent.
When the opponent is toppling over , he is unable to maintain the move or force in the way he intends to.
At this critical moment , the opponent can be defeated easily.

A bit more on Bil Jee - Of the three sets of Wing Chun forms , Bil Jee is indeed the most powerful one.
Every move of Bil Jee consists of the functions of both defence and attack with tremendous power of destruction.
Hence Bil Jee contains the highest level of skill in Wing Chun.

Here he talks about the elbow moves in Bil Jee - In Bil Jee the elbow moves are repeated many times because they are important in the sense that the practice of them may enable the person, who is familiar with Chum Kiu's rotation on the horizontal plane with an axle, to rotate three dimensionally like a sphere having the centre of rotation at the centre point of the body.
As both elbows are rotated on a slant, and once getting used to it , one can at discretion, rotate the elbows to any direction at any angle.

Thats the main bits , but I'm sure stuff has been lost in the translation.

 

[Siunimtao]

Looks like hes using Taigong nicely, thats where his force is coming from,