No kicks in Aikido

Yari

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,364
Reaction score
22
Location
rhus, Denmark
In most of the styles of Aikido I've seen, there are no kicks.

Any ideas to why?

/Yari
 
M

MisterMike

Guest
I think for the same reason ther are no strikes in some Aikido schools. They do not believe in hitting. Or the atemi is simply "understood to be there."

Some Aikido schools do show the atemi, but they are rarely kicks. 90% of Aikido Techniques will not work without atemi first. The founder would back that up.

Perhps they thought feet should stay on the ground.

Aiki-JuJutsu on the other hand...
 
OP
Yari

Yari

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,364
Reaction score
22
Location
rhus, Denmark
Yes I do agree,

I havn't found a Aikido school that does defence against a kick.

I've heard some teachers say that kicking is primative, but having that attitude doesn't help against people who kick.

But that's not what I would like to discuss, I would just like to hear from different people why there are no kicks in Aikido.

/Yari
 

theletch1

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
8,073
Reaction score
170
Location
79 Wistful Vista
Yari, Nihon Goshin has basic front and side kicks but no high kicks or spinning type kicks. We do have a couple of defense techniques against kicks. They are basic blending and balance breaking defenses and work quite well. I believe (and this is just my opinion) that lifting your feet high enough to deliver a good kick is thought to remove too much of the balance needed for taisubaki (sp). As the vast majority of techniques depends on the adroitness of hands and handwork the kicks have just been relegated to a "last resort" when being overwhelmed. I have a background in kenpo and have found that by utilizing the kicks of kenpo during randori that my job becomes much easier as far as defending myself. The question you ask is one I've asked myself many times.
 
M

MisterMike

Guest
Yari said:
Yes I do agree,

I havn't found a Aikido school that does defence against a kick.

I've heard some teachers say that kicking is primative, but having that attitude doesn't help against people who kick.

But that's not what I would like to discuss, I would just like to hear from different people why there are no kicks in Aikido.

/Yari


Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why there were no kicks used to defend yourself.

As for defending against kick attacks, I have seen this but not as frequently as punch attacks. The reason you see more hand attacks is because most people can grab with their hands and not their feet, (unless they are some sort of primate).

But most Aikido techniques taught require you to grab their hand/wrist to execute the throws, not the foot/ankle. Doesn't mean you can't do Irimi against a kick though. Guess it depends on the school/teacher.
 

theletch1

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
8,073
Reaction score
170
Location
79 Wistful Vista
MisterMike said:
Perhaps I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking why there were no kicks used to defend yourself.

As for defending against kick attacks, I have seen this but not as frequently as punch attacks. The reason you see more hand attacks is because most people can grab with their hands and not their feet, (unless they are some sort of primate).

But most Aikido techniques taught require you to grab their hand/wrist to execute the throws, not the foot/ankle. Doesn't mean you can't do Irimi against a kick though. Guess it depends on the school/teacher.
Have ya taken a good look at some of the "apes" hanging around town these days? You just can't see the opposable big toe 'cause of the shoes. :uhyeah:

As for defending against a kick, I agree that we have a couple of defenses but not many and most likely for the reasons Mike listed. I've yet to find a "complete" art so I tend to seek out like minded individuals and take what we've learned and put it together to augment our official training. I'm lucky in that my sensei encourages this so long as I don't confuse folks in class with it. I'm allowed free access to the dojo when it's not in use to get together with the folks and train and he is always open minded to whatever we have to show him before or after class. We don't throw it out during class so as not to interfere with the training of other students. I know this doesn't answer the "why" of your question but it may give you an idea of "how to get around" this apparent deficiency.
 
B

babaker

Guest
Yari said:
In most of the styles of Aikido I've seen, there are no kicks.

Any ideas to why?

/Yari

You are kidding, right?

Any opening that comes up can allow an insertion of kicks, punches, strikes of any type you have a mind to add, but MOST aikido schools don't teach this. It is almost an unwritten law that one do that research and training either before taking aikido or for oneself outside of aikido class.

A kick is the first thing a Ni-dan or san-dan does when an opening appears, I know because I have left an opening just to see if they would take the bait, and they do ... again, and again, and again.

Don't listen to people who say you can't mix martial arts, because all people mix techniques even if they are modified or taylored to fit the timing and style of another martial art.


I really wish this stupid test would catch fire and set the the pants on fire of those who still tell these lies that certain arts are either non-violent, or can't be adapted and changed. It is getting old ...
 

theletch1

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
8,073
Reaction score
170
Location
79 Wistful Vista
babaker said:
You are kidding, right?

Any opening that comes up can allow an insertion of kicks, punches, strikes of any type you have a mind to add, but MOST aikido schools don't teach this. It is almost an unwritten law that one do that research and training either before taking aikido or for oneself outside of aikido class.

A kick is the first thing a Ni-dan or san-dan does when an opening appears, I know because I have left an opening just to see if they would take the bait, and they do ... again, and again, and again.

Don't listen to people who say you can't mix martial arts, because all people mix techniques even if they are modified or taylored to fit the timing and style of another martial art.


I really wish this stupid test would catch fire and set the the pants on fire of those who still tell these lies that certain arts are either non-violent, or can't be adapted and changed. It is getting old ...
Nope, he wasn't kidding, but, knowing Yari, he was simply asking what our opinions were as to why this isn't taught as part of the curriculum. I do agree that it is usually considered the responsibility of the practitioner to research these things on his own, or to have studied another art before aikido. I've heard it said that to truly appreciate aikido that it is important that it be a second art. I know that this is true in my case. There are many subtleties that I would have missed altogether or not gotten until much later in my training had I not trained in another style beforehand. I mix styles all the time during multiple attacker drills and it works well. I'd also have to agree with you that the idea that aikido is a soft and gentle art is getting rather old. However, I'm of the opinion that should someone realize that I study aikido and choose to believe that that makes me less able to defend myself then so be it. Underestimate me all you want...it just makes my job that much easier.
 
OP
Yari

Yari

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,364
Reaction score
22
Location
rhus, Denmark
True,

I wasn't kidding.

It was my honest attempt to hear other peoples opionen.

I've praticed other arts than Aikido, so I feel I have a feeling of which opnings there are.

Using Atemi, is one thing, defending against an atemi or attack is something else.

Even if I feel that kicking high, or cicurlar (sp?), might leave me open. People who might attack me, dont nessarly think that.

The old evade, and pull uke in the direction of his bad balance is an "old" technique which I know. But that wasn't what I was thinking of. Had more or less just "forgotten" it, and was thinking of more advance possibilties.

But, reading your post Jeff, that when kicking high the possiblity of evading shrinks (my wording based on what you wrote), sounds good. I think you have a good point there!!!!!!!

Thansk guys for the good input!

/Yari
 
M

MisterMike

Guest
For a brief discussion on kicks in Aikido, see "Best Aikido" by Moriteru Ueshiba.

One point mentions that to kick goes against having a unified center with the earth. To do this, you need both feet on the ground.

But there are certainly techniques for use with a kicking opponent.
 
OP
Yari

Yari

Master Black Belt
Joined
Feb 1, 2002
Messages
1,364
Reaction score
22
Location
rhus, Denmark
MisterMike said:
For a brief discussion on kicks in Aikido, see "Best Aikido" by Moriteru Ueshiba.

One point mentions that to kick goes against having a unified center with the earth. To do this, you need both feet on the ground.

But there are certainly techniques for use with a kicking opponent.

Sounds OK. Keeping your center.

Could you elaborate on the techniques you see in Aikido against a kicking opponent?


/Yari
 
J

Jas

Guest
theletch1 said:
Yari, Nihon Goshin has basic front and side kicks but no high kicks or spinning type kicks. ]

I used to study Nihon Goshin Aikido, it is an excellant style I am a green belt (the first rank to learn kicking defenses) these are very effective!!! as for the spinning and high kicks we do practice them often (my Sensei was a blackbelt in ishonryu(?) Karate before he studied Aikido. I am still with the same Sensei (Jerry Phelps) he has started his own style, it is called Nihon Goshinjutsu Aikido. It is all the Nihon Goshin Aikido with alot of Juijitsu(?) sorry for all the bad spelling!!!! You can check it out at Aikidobuff.com.

John
 

Shogun

Master Black Belt
Joined
Apr 14, 2004
Messages
1,067
Reaction score
21
Location
Snohomish county, Washington state
The Kicks I know of that are commonly used in Aikido are:
Mae Geri - front kick
yoko Geri - side kick
mawashi geri - roundhouse kick

Usually these kicks are used at higher levels. to me it would make more sense to introduce them sooner. However, as a self-defense, I have never seen anyone kick at me in a street fight.
There might be more Atemi in the Aiki I practice. It is actually a Bujutsu form (Ideta Ryu)
 

theletch1

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
8,073
Reaction score
170
Location
79 Wistful Vista
buddah_belly said:
Most styles do. As JAS stated Nihon Goshin does at green belt level and above although many students will experiment with defenses at lower levels on their own. I have a kenpo back ground so I have been known to use some old kenpo defenses in a line. My classmates know my history so they will throw a kick out there now and then just to see my reaction. I really enjoy taking a kenpo tech/defense and transitioning into an aikido technique.
 

theletch1

Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 21, 2003
Messages
8,073
Reaction score
170
Location
79 Wistful Vista
Yari said:
I'd love to try practicing your style, Jeff.

/Yari
Yari, pack up the family and move to the states! :uhyeah: We've always got room for one more crash test dummy, er I mean, aikido-ka at the dojo.
 
S

ShhDragon@sprynet.com

Guest
Sure there are kicks!

The trouble arises when we think a tsuki is a thrust punch and a Yokomenuchi is a strike to the temple with the pinky edge of the fist. These two terms (tsuki and yokomenuchi) as well as others such as shomenuchi do not refer to types of fist strikes. They refer to directions of energies. Notably, we often express these energies as punches.

Often the question you asked leads us to wonder: "Do you have techniques for locking an ankle because my kotegaeshi likely would fail on those fat ankles of uke's?" We lock the wrist in kotegaeshi often because it is a relatively simple matter. But these waza refer not to wrist locks but the shapes/directions and their energies. Kotegaeshi does not refer to a wristlock rather it refers to a series of energies, directions, and intentions required to offer the ground to uke in a given circumstance.



-Stephen Watson
 

Paul B

3rd Black Belt
MTS Alumni
Joined
Aug 29, 2004
Messages
942
Reaction score
13
Location
Northwest Indiana
True enough.

Tsuki simply means "thrust" in any direction,but it needs a qualifier,such as shomen(front of head) or mune(middle of body).

Same goes for the other strikes you mentioned,but by adding "men" and "uchi" to "sho" or "yoko"... you get strike to side or front of head. If you want to talk specific energies I would think it would be yoko(side) or mae(front) or mawashi(enwrapping or circling).

I do know what you mean,though.:)

As far as kote gaeshi or "wrist return/reversal",I think that not only describes the lock but the motion and theory behind it.

And...yes there are kicks in Aikido,but you don't see them often.
 

Blooming Lotus

Purple Belt
Joined
Nov 2, 2004
Messages
332
Reaction score
17
Location
Bris heading to Sydney feb ish
theletch1 said:
I mix styles all the time during multiple attacker drills .
ditto and I only have about 5 mths ish of formal aikido myself, but remember that any jutsu is based on "submission" philosophy which a kick hardly conforms to. Still wouldn't be without my feet but I also value my little ninjutsu training ( and am about to get back into it with a haatsumi bujinkan branch) and wondered the same thing about that. They are both from the same base system ( if chinese origin doesn't count) and when it hit Japan, was omitted or downplayed for a reason. .......... just as wing chun has only 4 kicks( ???) but that 's a whole new thread.
 
Top