No Holds Barred

[KumaSan]

That may have been true in the beginning, esp. the early UFC's, but lately they have jack to do with any of the events going on. Even when they fight, now, they get spanked by Sakuraba.
Although they are probably still raking in dough from people studying their style (including me).

 

[fist of fury]

FOr those they like UFC here's a website that has some video clip highlights of some of the fights.
www.sherdog.com

 

[Kyle]

The UFC and other mixed-martial-art (MMA) competitions have done great things for martial arts. Simply put, they have re-created the demand for skills that actually work rather than the fantasy-land that too many traditionalist still live in.

Too many martial-arts are knowledge-based rather than skill-based. If you do not train against resisting opponents, you are wasting your time. If you can't punch/kick, grapple, and disarm/defend a stick/knife/gun, you have serious holes in your skills. Give up the kata/forms and the point sparring.

No, MMA is not "The Street". It's safer and easier. So why on earth would you think that the fantasy-land technique that wouldn't work in MMA somehow work on "The Street"?

- Kyle

 

[Rob_Broad]

Originally posted by Kyle


Too many martial-arts are knowledge-based rather than skill-based.

Every style has a theory part to, to think that it does not is just foolish. You have to have the "knowledge in order to have the skill.

If you do not train against resisting opponents, you are wasting your time.

Working with a resisting opponent is great, but you do have to work up to it.

Give up the kata/forms and the point sparring.

By doing kata/forms you learn how to move and how to respond instictively. You learn how to move through your katas, they teach you how to find your balance and your sources of power. When I was younger I thought kata was useless, until I took the time to really give it a try with an open mind. That changed how I train, I found lots of information in my forms that is there waiting for you, but you have to discover it for yourself.

Point sparring is meant to be fun, it is also a great way to get people used to other people trying to hit them. No one should start continuous sparring until they are comfortable with the lessons that are learned from point sparring.

No, MMA is not "The Street". It's safer and easier. So why on earth would you think that the fantasy-land technique that wouldn't work in MMA somehow work on "The Street"?

The difference between doing a techniques that might not work in the dojo and on thestreet is the level of commitment you have in the technique. On the trainig floor you stop your self and that hestiation can make the technique not work, where on the street you won't have that internal restraint. And a lot of the stuff you see in MMA events won't work on the street either. I don't want go to the ground in alley while his 3 buddies are coming to help him. Reality in training methods is a must. But a lot of people see these "No Holds Barred" events and think that the martial arts are nothing but brutality and that hurts us in the long run.

 

[tigerstorm]

I think to some extent theses NHB competitins have helped martial arts. For exposure sake though only. Lets look at some of the modern day Instructors, major dilemas, and I dont mean personal in school problems. I think if we look at some of the things talked baout we might all agree that people move to fats in rank, a 12 year old with five stripes is not my worst nightmare. What has happened is that people see this and the type of people that see this competition and walk into the school, usually are not the type of students that you hope stay for years. They walk in with an attitude usually and already the think they can fight, now theyve seen NHB and they want to be that good. I think that the popularization that these events have caused are also a huge drawback of all martial arts today.
Shadow, as you knwo I never mean any disrespect and have never as of yet thought that you were being to harsh or blunt (frankly I enjoy it), I believe we have spoken and you know its difficult for me to address you informally, but you are right it is only a computer. It will still be hard but I will do my best to use the appropriate computer title. And apologies for my mispelling your name, kinda defeats the hole perpuse of using it.
Much Respect
Tigerstorm

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by Rob_Broad

Every style has a theory part to, to think that it does not is just foolish. You have to have the "knowledge in order to have the skill.

You completely missed my point. Of course you need knowledge before skill. Too many martial-artists never develop any significant skill. It's always a quest for knowledge. Knowledge that cannot be effectively utilized in a "Real Situation" is worthless.

Working with a resisting opponent is great, but you do have to work up to it.

How long? One class, a week, a month, a year? If you're not using resistance after a month at the outside, you're wasting time.

By doing kata/forms you learn...blah, blah

Dude, I did kata for years. Total waste of time. Technique, drills, sparring. That's how you spend your time if you want to develop skill.

...on thestreet is the level of commitment you have in the technique. On the trainig floor you stop your self and that hestiation can make the technique not work,...

If you can't train your technique with resistance the way you would execute on the street, again, waste of time. However, there are not too many techniques that can't be done that way.

...think that the martial arts are nothing but brutality...

If you want aesthetics, take dance lessons. Real fights are brutal. MMA may not be "The Street", but it gives you the right idea. I don't care about aesthetics, I care about what works.

- Kyle

 

[TLH3rdDan]

ok ive got one of these so called ultimate fighting schools here called the fighters guild... they teach muay tai and lots of grappling and they fight in a boxing ring... i had a guy in a chat room badgering me about it saying that this was the only way to train so i went and checked out their program... talk about a bunch of nut cases... these guys had no real martial arts training they were just guys who like to beat the hell out of each other... i saw one guy leave with a broken arm and another with a dislocated shoulder... this was just their training sessions... then i hear one of them telling a new guy... " if it dont work in the cage it dont work at all"... first of all when are you ever going to be in a ring in a real situation... second how often do you end up being in a one on one fight in the modern world... third these guys did not deal with weapons just empty hands... and how can you be prepared for real life if your going to the hospital on a nightly basis... i was totally disgusted by this whole school... i think things like this are a disgrace and really bad for martial arts... and i dont like the phrase "no holds barred" if that were true i can almost guarentee someone would be going to the morgue

 

[TLH3rdDan]

"If you can't train your technique with resistance the way you would execute on the street, again, waste of time. However, there are not too many techniques that can't be done that way."

ok fill me in how would you practice an arm break the exact way you would do it on the street?

how would you practice wrist breaks and eye gouges and throat strikes and groin strikes and neck breaks the way you would in the street?

you cant unless you have an endless supply of people willing to be brutally beaten and possibly killed just to practice the technique....

"Dude, I did kata for years. Total waste of time. Technique, drills, sparring. That's how you spend your time if you want to develop skill."

ok so have you explore every single move in the katas you did... do you know what they were designed for????

what kind of drills do you do?

and im assuming you have a training partner with you every single time you work out? do you ever work out alone? if so what do you do?
:soapbox:

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan

ok fill me in how would you practice an arm break the exact way you would do it on the street?

how would you practice wrist breaks and eye gouges and throat strikes and groin strikes and neck breaks the way you would in the street?

There's no big secret. With joint locks, your partner must signal, by verbally or physically submitting. Otherwise they will get their joint injured. Other than you having enough control to let go when they submit, you are doing the technique exactly the same as if it were on "The Street".

With something like eye gouges, wear swimming goggles. It works quite well.

you cant unless you have an endless supply of people willing to be brutally beaten and possibly killed just to practice the technique....

Simply not true as I indicated above. Your hyperbole leads me to believe that you have never tried to train in a realistic manner. Your time is valuable, use it wisely.

ok so have you explore every single move in the katas you did... do you know what they were designed for????

what kind of drills do you do?

Again, you are on a quest for knowledge. That's great, but it's just a precursor to skill. Skill and physical attributes are what make you effective.

and im assuming you have a training partner with you every single time you work out? do you ever work out alone? if so what do you do?

You are correct, I always have a training partner when I train. If I am not training, I do conditioning exercises.

- Kyle

 

[Kyle]

Originally posted by TLH3rdDan

ok ive got one of these so called ultimate fighting schools here called the fighters guild[...]these guys had no real martial arts training they were just guys who like to beat the hell out of each other.

Yep, there will be crappy schools no matter what the style. You shouldn't point to a poor example of something to say that whole idea is wrong.

second how often do you end up being in a one on one fight in the modern world... third these guys did not deal with weapons just empty hands...

Ask yourself how well you can handle the one-on-one situation. If you would not fare well there, then you have a lot work before worrying about multiple-attackers and weapons.

i was totally disgusted by this whole school... i think things like this are a disgrace and really bad for martial arts...

From your description, I would certainly agree with you. Betcha didn't think that would happen

- Kyle

 

[Rainman]

On many levels I agree. For years I hated forms. Even to this day I don't like to spend time on them when there are live bodies to work on. On the the other hand you should not judge systems that use them as training tools. They are used for solo conditioning and they also show what a person knows about speed, power, timing, accuracy, balance, relaxation and concentraition to name a few. Just because someone "wins" a tournement with a form doesn't mean they are any good at it.

Back in the days when the lions den achieved noteriety they sighted tai chi as a model used for relaxation. I believe Ken Shamrock also sighted Kenpo Karate as a small part of their mma style.

I also agree about resistence but, resistence is internal as well as external and some time needs to be spent without resistance as well. Why? Incorrect and misdirected use of power will take your balance and slow recovery time thus lending an oppertunity for attack.

Lastly I am an enormous fan of ufc, vale tudo, pride, muy tai, dog bros, pankration...

 

[tshadowchaser]

This thread is takeing the "how do I know it works" road.
The last time I remember people practiceing martial arts full contact with no olds barres, in order to try new techniquesit was called WAR. Those practiceing (the ones on the loseing side) where caled was criminals. A POW was pulled into an area and told to fight for his or his buddies life. If he won they lived another day (sometimes). It was a way for some practictioners to learn new techniques and seen s honorable combate by them.
If I go no holds barred with my students the local ER will fill quickly. Even useing "controlled " techiques if they are done often enough the tendons, ligiments, and cartiledge get weakened and bruised.
Shadow

 

[Carbon]

I'm saying that if I was walking down LA's ghetto and I saw 2 gangsters and this is sterotypical and they had no guns and no knives just a straight up fist fight. So lets say I hired The Shamrock brothers oh boy. I bet the gangsters would be crying and probably dead if I didn't call them off. The only reason people think gangsters can fight is because it doesn't take alot of skill for one to punch you in the back of the head and his 10 friends run up and start stomping on your back. Now I have never seen a gang fight where is was 1 on 1 and I've hardly seen many fights where someone didn't want to jump in lol. So this just proves my point that most people would get there *** kicked in a 1 on 1 fight with a NHB or a UFC fighter because these guys go freaking nuts and Tank Abbot my god I love watching him fight. I bought the UFC 2's greatest fights DVD and I want to buy the other one.