No fights, PLease!

J

Jas0n

Guest
I want to know what you guys see as the difference bettween Tracy and EP Kenpo...
I was told by an instructor and tracy student for 10 yrs that tracy Kenpo only has half the techniques.
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,068
Reaction score
705
Location
Kennewick, WA
Hi Jason,

This thread will light some fires no matter how much you beg otherwise, but I will try to answer your question. :)

The funny thing about that statement is that most Tracy practitioners would say it the other way around, that EPAK only has half the techniques (or less).

The math goes something like this:

Under the official Tracy curriculum the technique requirements are 10 for yellow and 30 for every belt after that, through 5th black. A first degree Tracy BB should have 250 techniques, a 5th degree would have 370.

These numbers don't include all of the ABC... variations that the tracy techs include, though the number of base techs should actually be reduced because some techs are split so that Kimono Grab ABC is taught at one belt level, and Kimono Grab DE is taught at another. (With all the variations the complete Tracy curriculum is supposed to come out at 600 techs).

OK, the calculations on the EPAK side are equally tricky, I'll use the 24 tech curriculum because it is so well publicised and popular. Yellow is 10 techs, plus 24 techniques through Green, Brown and up you get extensions for your Orange to Green techs. By my calculation that is 106 base techniques, plus 96 variations, for a total of 202 techniques. Under this curriculum a 1st degree EPAK BB has 154 techniques, a 3rd degree has 202.

Does that make sense? At least this much of the argument is verifiable, and is relatively simple math.

The far harder to define question is, what is the purpose of teaching the techniques. The Tracy focus is to have an answering technique for an extremely large number of variables, the EPAK curriculum is designed to give a fewer number of techniques (concepts of motion), but then use the web of knowledge to allow you to figure out the answer for yourself.
What the best methodology really is, is a matter of opinion there is no factual answer.

Hope that helped,

Lamont
 

Blindside

Grandmaster
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Messages
5,068
Reaction score
705
Location
Kennewick, WA
OK, the calculations on the EPAK side are equally tricky, I'll use the 24 tech curriculum because it is so well publicised and popular. Yellow is 10 techs, plus 24 techniques through Green, Brown and up you get extensions for your Orange to Green techs. By my calculation that is 106 base techniques, plus 96 variations, for a total of 202 techniques. Under this curriculum a 1st degree EPAK BB has 154 techniques, a 3rd degree has 202.

WHOOPS, I didn't include the 48 brown belt base techniques. So there are 154 base techniques plus 96 extensions.

I'm surprised someone didn't point that out already.

Lamont
 
OP
R

Rob_Broad

Guest
Having studied both systems I can now relate them to cooking. I am not trying to get anyone going with this analogy so please bare with me.

The Tracy system is like a very complete Campbell Soup cook book. They give you a recipe for anyting you will ever want or need and offer several methods of preparing each item.

The Parker system is like walking out with Chef's papers. You learn from some recipes but once you have the concept of what you are doing you experiment and improvise and volia you have what you needed.


Both systems have their merits one is very well set into the ways of to do this you must follow all these steps, the other is here are the ingredients and this is what is wanted how you get there is up to you.
 
OP
I

IKCAMemberGary

Guest
I once was speaking with a Tracy Instructor at a local school, and we were comparing IKCA to Tracy. I showed him some of our techniques, and he showed me his. We talked about the number of techs found in the Tracy system, around 600. I couldnt believe it! I asked him if he could do all 600 if I asked him to, and he said he could not, at least not without referring to his manuals.

All I could say was wow....

Gary
 
OP
K

Katie Simmons

Guest
I'd say the difference between Tracy's and EPAK lies not in the number of techniques but the complexities of theory and terminology. In the Tracy system, the number of techniques you learn will vary from instructor to instructor so there's not really a way to compare the system in terms of techniques, as a whole to EPAK. However, after studying Tracy's and interacting with EPAK people, I can tell you that EPAK terminology and theory is considerably more complex. I wouldn't say that either system allows for variation to a greater extent, because the way I was taught Tracy's is that the techniques are a guideline and that once you get the basics you create your own variations. EPAK people just talk about the possibilities more, and in their own specific language.
 

Michael Billings

Senior Master
MTS Alumni
Joined
Apr 5, 2002
Messages
3,962
Reaction score
31
Location
Austin, Texas USA-Terra
I came out of a Tracy derived school for my 1st Black Belt. AND DAMN PROUD OF IT!

But everything was much "bigger", the circles, the strikes, etc., all definitly had a more "Chinese" influence.

When I went to EPAK and "started over" with people like Howard Silva, Bob Liles, Dian Tanaka, or Dennis the Menace Conatser, Tommy Burks, it was while Brian Duffy was switching to EPAK and creating the 16 Technique system, IT WAS A WHOLE NEW WORLD!!!! I kid you not.

It was not the same Art. You could see where EPAK came from in looking at the Tracy material, but the changes already in place circa 1989 - 1990 were just huge. Much smaller cirlcles, more active checks, more awareness of the Principles, Concepts and Theories as Mr. Parker "required" you to know "Why", not just what.

The logic was what amazed me, along with the analytical logical structure of movement. And boy did they hit hard too!!! Sorry, I did not mean to in any way take away from what you percieve as the difference. We rocked in the Chinese Kenpo- we just rocked in a different way in EPAK. And I loved it, and I guess I still do. Just do a class with the likes of Tom Kelly Sr., Dennis Conatser, Bob Liles, or John Sepulveda. These men take EPAK to a whole new level, and about as close to the "Source" as you will get now days. Compare and contrast, it is interesting to say the least, informative or enlightening to have a laying on of the hands with any of these guys.

Remember, this is just my perspective, coming out of the late 70's and early 80's in a Tracy system and moving in the mid 80's to EPAK. It is only my opinion and personal experiences. Although since then I have been very fortunate to get some very good TRACO and TRACY students in my school. They have all the tools, but need a little help in organizing the tool chest.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com
 
OP
S

stacks

Guest
I have studied Tracy kenpo for over 10 years and have studied alot about both Al Tracy and Ed Parker and have found that both men are amazing at their individual arts. I have met Al Tracy on a number of occasions at training seminars and instructor seminars. however I did not have the pleasure of meeting grand master Parker. I have heard all the pros and con of each art from both sides and decided that both arts are equaly great and both deserve two thumbs up for giving us the chance to see it, train it and live it everyday

stacks
 
OP
J

jules

Guest
Originally posted by stacks
I have studied Tracy kenpo for over 10 years and have studied alot about both Al Tracy and Ed Parker and have found that both men are amazing at their individual arts. I have met Al Tracy on a number of occasions at training seminars and instructor seminars. however I did not have the pleasure of meeting grand master Parker. I have heard all the pros and con of each art from both sides and decided that both arts are equaly great and both deserve two thumbs up for giving us the chance to see it, train it and live it everyday

stacks



:cheers:
 
Top