Nia Abdullah VS. Dianna Lopez

[terryl965]

Not at all, Terry. I've indicated clearly in my post that I'm not making judgments about anyone else's take on TKD, and that, while I don't see Olympic-style TKD as being healthy for the approach to TKD that I want to pursue, but I thought I was being very clear that I wasn't passing any judgments on anyone else's approach to the issue.

I think Olympic TKD is corrupt (as this very thread helps illustrate), reflecting organizational corruption, nothing to do with the competitors themselves (just as in that horrific figure skating scandal a number of years ago). And I think that the very aggressive institutional promotion of Olympic TKD by the Korean agencies that dominate the way sport TKD operates has lead to a severe devaluation of the martial content of TKD, not just in the point-scoring system of WTF-sponsored tournaments, but in the technical pressure exerted by the KKW (as I read it) to push the TKD curriculum in the direction of sport use, rather than combat application. But that says nothing about any particular individual who chooses to participate in WTF sponsored tournaments. The problem isn't with the participants, but with the Olympic administrators and profiteers, and with the subordination of combat relevance to sport spectacle by TKD Central in Seoul. I'm not sure why you think what I said was a reflection on your own involvement in any way.




My point was just that (i) I wouldn't recommend, to anyone who asked me, getting involved in a supposedly competitive activity which is as subject to rigging and vote-swapping as we've seen Olympic sports in general to be over the past several years, with the disappointment, frustration and sheer unfairness that has resulted, and (ii) that the Olympic TKD organizations are driving a redefinition of TKD which is fundamanentally incompatible with the view of TKD that I hold. MangoMan actually said something very close to what I believe—they are two fundamentally different things going by different names—but the problem I see is that over time, the perception of TKD as exclusively sport spectacle will make it very difficult for people who wants to teach the combat art to attract clients to their dojangs, because the image of TKD as ring competition will have become so widely and deeply ingrained. But again, this passes no judgments on anyone who chooses to participate in such contests—reread my post, Terry, and you'll see that I was speaking for my choices alone.

Sorry Exile tired xlasses just got done and really did not read the entire thread, thank you for clearing that up.

 

[terryl965]

Now you know I am not a TKD practitioner but I have been reading this thread with some interest and FF's questions made me think. I cannot say whether or not I would recommend Olympic competition to my students because I have no experience in that style of martial art activity.

However, looking at it from the point of view of a parent, I can see that this might appeal. It is a physical activity, something we are being told we need more of (especially children); it can lead to prestigious Olympic involvement; and it is safe as far as martial arts go. Any parent who saw that fight and didn't have any real understanding of MAs would be quite happy to let their children participate. The perception would be that there is no chance of getting hurt.

And that is the real problem with Olympic TKD. It presents a certain face to the general public and it is not the same face that the practitioners see. This situation with the Lopez family is a continuation of that. In order to have a bunch of happy snaps and be able to say something about 100 years since a family represented in the same sport, USAT has furthered a very unfortunate stereotype that those outside (and many inside) the martial art community hold with regard to TKD.


I have a quick question of my own. When I was watching the match, apart from wishing they would do something, I kept wondering why no one used a sharp and quick front kick, snap kick call it what you will (I know it as a Crane kick). Can anyone tell me why, especially with the arms down by the sides?

I have no clue it is also called a push kick, basically most referee's wil not score it except the opponet is driven to the floor with it. Now this match was a bad example of Olympic TKD but for the most part this is what has become sit back and wait. All my fighters are tought to attack and score often and quickly setting us as the aggressor.

 

[Tez3]

I think Steel Tiger hit the nail on the head with his last post, for those of us who don't do TKD we have only this Olympic 'style' basically to show us what TKD is.
Incidentally, on another thread about MMA I was thinking of which UK fighters to represent my point about MMA fighters being martial artists and several I came up with are actually TKD black belts, there's other styles of course but I think it proves that TKD is still a combat sport! I don't think that the crossover to MMA implies anything about TKD, just that the practioner wishes to cross train.
I can understand ambitions to represent your country in an Olympics but in the case of TKD will the hopefuls also be training in what I'd call 'proper' TKD and learn to fight properly?

 

[terryl965]

I think Steel Tiger hit the nail on the head with his last post, for those of us who don't do TKD we have only this Olympic 'style' basically to show us what TKD is.
Incidentally, on another thread about MMA I was thinking of which UK fighters to represent my point about MMA fighters being martial artists and several I came up with are actually TKD black belts, there's other styles of course but I think it proves that TKD is still a combat sport! I don't think that the crossover to MMA implies anything about TKD, just that the practioner wishes to cross train.
I can understand ambitions to represent your country in an Olympics but in the case of TKD will the hopefuls also be training in what I'd call 'proper' TKD and learn to fight properly?

TEZ I can answer for my son Yes he trains both ways for the sport and for the streets. Who knows by the time 2012-2016 comes it may not even be part of the Olympics.

 

[Steel Tiger]

TEZ I can answer for my son Yes he trains both ways for the sport and for the streets. Who knows by the time 2012-2016 comes it may not even be part of the Olympics.

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

 

[terryl965]

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

Yes it does remember they are suppose to make some changes next year. Let hope they will include the hand to the head.

 

[exile]

I hope that the Olympics does not lose TKD, but some rule changes need to be made. I have always thought it might be worth giving punches a higher score. Of course this still relies on the integrity of the judges.

Yes it does remember they are suppose to make some changes next year. Let hope they will include the hand to the head.

Dead right, both of you. The head is the primo target in any real self-defense application of a MA, and probably 99 times out of hundred, it's going to be a hand/arm tech that nails that target. It seems crazy, doesn't it, to rule out what is probably the main realistic striking tech—fist/palm-heel/forearm/elbow to a head/throat target—in competition. The story goes, well, that could kill someone. And yes, it could; but then, rule out the genuinely lethal striking targets—the larynx, for example, or maybe the temple—but leave the face as a legal target, and above all, count hand strikes to the head for points. Just do that, and... instant regained credibility. But as ST reminds us, it all comes down to the judges... they have to be trained to report these strikes for scoring.

[MASSIVEUNDERSTATEMENT]A big change in mindset is going to be necessary here...[/MASSIVEUNDERSTATEMENT]

 

[Steel Tiger]

The interesting thing I have found with Olympic TKD is that the targeting and scoring system actually trains fighters to attack those tougher targets - the torso and the head. And only those targets. The torso can be protected with the arms and the head is a high risk target (interesting that it doesn't score better than torso shots) given the fighters are effectively encouraged to use their feet.

From my point of view, a low kick can open up an opponent to an attack to a more vital location, but those sort of tactics, and from the few bouts I have seen any sort of tactics, are denied competitors. I guess it could be an attempt to encourage them to perform some flashy really high risk technique, rather than a methodical wearing down of the opponent.

This one of the elements that suggest to me TKD is going through a big change as the Olympic aspect vears into a significantly different direction to the combative aspect. The end result, in maybe 10 or 20 years, could very well be the existence of some very distinct substyles of TKD.

 

[texkwondo]

posted in wrong thread