New Yang Rank System

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grydth

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I have heard rumors that there will soon be gradings for degree of "wankers"... any word on this?

In the meantime, you've given me an idea for a new thread to upset everyone with....:soapbox:
 

East Winds

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It is interesting to read some posts here which seem to suggest that by introducing gradings, the Yang Family have suddenly diluted their teachings. Why would the introduction of a grading system degrade Traditional Yang Family taijiquan? So far I have not seen anyone giving such an explanation.
Incidentally I do not speak for the Yang Family, not do I necessarily agree that gradings are a requirement in any Taiji system.

Very best wishes
 

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dmax999

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It is interesting to read some posts here which seem to suggest that by introducing gradings, the Yang Family have suddenly diluted their teachings. Why would the introduction of a grading system degrade Traditional Yang Family taijiquan? So far I have not seen anyone giving such an explanation.
Incidentally I do not speak for the Yang Family, not do I necessarily agree that gradings are a requirement in any Taiji system.

I hope I did not imply this. I don't think the ranking will affect the quality of their teaching, but I do think it will change the quality of their students. I was only attempting to point out some possibilities, and I am personally hoping for their changes to improve Tai Chi for everyone. The problem of them making the changes required to gain a better "work ethic" of students will dissuade many other students. If the ranking system is just a money making scheme for them, as others have suggested, then the positivie outcome will not be the one we see.

I personally am hoping they improve things, as I don't know who else has the level of respect to be able to. If they move things in the correct direction I will be in line to get ranked with others that I feel are on the right path.
 

Xue Sheng

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http://www.limingyue.com/

No further comment needed from me

Very best wishes

I am not sure what you are trying to say here since the title mentioned was given by the Government and not the Chen family

Master Liming Yue holds a 7th Duan Wei, officially awarded by the Chinese Government National Martial Arts Association.

Not awarded by the Chen family

http://www.chenzhenglei.co.uk/chenzhenglei.php

Second paragraph is interesting

Very best wishes

He has been officially recognized as one of the Top Ten Foremost Martial Artists by the Chinese State Government and has been awarded the honor of National Martial Arts Senior Instructor holding of 8th Duan Wei of Chinese Wushu (Martial Arts) Grading System. He is also a Committee Member of China Physical Culture & Science Institute.

Yes it is and again not awarded by the Chen Family

These are awards given by the Chinese government, so I guess I don't know what you are trying to say.These are Chinese Governmetn Wushu awards not a Chen Ranking system.

All that your posts show is that the Chinese government does have a ranking system in its martial arts associations not that the Chen family has one.
 

East Winds

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Xue Sheng,

Chenzhenglei is President of the UK Chen Style Tai Chi Chuan Centre. The Instructors of this Centre are ranked according to the grading of the Duan Wei system. Here is an entry from Chenzhenlei's website http://www.chenzhenglei.co.uk/indoorstudents_uk.php

Here at least is a Chen Family member who has apparently no problem embracing a grading system for Taiji. The face of things to come??????

Very best wishes
 
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grydth

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Perhaps I am misreading these sites' contents, but these appear to be about Chen masters who have also accepted high Wushu ranks from Mainland China.

Where is the mention of Chen ranks or of the acceptance of a grading system in Chen Style?

By the way, thanks for finding and sharing these.
 

East Winds

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grydth,

Thanks for the input which is always valued. Gradings are gradings whether they are done by a family or done by a government. The Chen Tai Chi Centre say quite specifically that their Instructors are graded according to the Duan Wei system and they arrange trips for their students and Instructors to go to China to be graded.(As I mentioned in an earlier post) Note also that these Instructors are listed as Indoor students of Chenzhenlei.

I never at any time claimed that the Chen Family used gradings I only pointed out that a member of the Chen family who was President of the Chen Tai Chi Centre apparently approved gradings in Tai Chi.
icon11.gif
All I'm saying is that you cannot condemn the Yang Family for introdicing a grading system but say that its OK for the Chen system to use a Government grading system.

In any case I wonder which would be the more appropriate. A Family grading themselves or a Family being graded by the Government!!!!
:erg:
Very best wishes
 

Xue Sheng

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As for what Zhenglei does in England I do not know. I have not seen a family level requirement or listing of a ranking system from the Chen family nor have I seen Zhenglei use this system in the states, but that does not mean he doesn't, it means I have not seen it. But unlike the Yang family were Zhenduo and Jun are the family, Zhenglei is one of the family not the one making decisions for what the Chen family is to do. To be honest I am not sure who that is but I believe Xiaowang is older and there is at least 1 or 2 more currently teaching also I do not think Zhenglei is in charge at Chen Village.

You might want to take into account the curriculum of the Chen family I posted a link to was for foreigners. This means they likely treat us different than Chinese on mainland China and I already know that is a fact and although I am not happy about it I do, sadly, feel it is justified.

As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business". I don't like it but I doubt the Yang family cares much what I think. I don't train with them and don't plan to so I don't have to worry about it either. Except from the stand point that I believe it will, in the long run, make things worse for Taiji not better.

As stated the Chen family has no such ranking system that is all. If one from the family uses the wushu system them good for him. I don't like that either, but it is still not from the Chen family.

But with this said I will very much research the Wushu system and compare it to the Yang’s system and see what I can see.

But with all this said I will also say I like Zhenglei he is a very talented Martial artist

And additionally, push hands, applications and Qigong are part of the Chen curriculum. I have still seen nor heard no mention that it was part of the Yang family's curriculum. But I am very much hoping that it is.
 

Steel Tiger

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But with this said I will very much research the Wushu system and compare it to the Yang’s system and see what I can see.quote]

I have just been looking at the Wushu grading system for this very reason. Guess What? They are almost identical. There are nine duan wei which seem to be grouped into sets of three - lower range, intermediate range, advanced range. There did not appear to be any time requirements but to hold a six or greater one needed to have won the Chinese National Championship or have equivalent skill.
 
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grydth

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grydth,

Thanks for the input which is always valued. Gradings are gradings whether they are done by a family or done by a government. The Chen Tai Chi Centre say quite specifically that their Instructors are graded according to the Duan Wei system and they arrange trips for their students and Instructors to go to China to be graded.(As I mentioned in an earlier post) Note also that these Instructors are listed as Indoor students of Chenzhenlei.

I never at any time claimed that the Chen Family used gradings I only pointed out that a member of the Chen family who was President of the Chen Tai Chi Centre apparently approved gradings in Tai Chi.
icon11.gif
All I'm saying is that you cannot condemn the Yang Family for introdicing a grading system but say that its OK for the Chen system to use a Government grading system.

In any case I wonder which would be the more appropriate. A Family grading themselves or a Family being graded by the Government!!!!
:erg:
Very best wishes

Consider the respect mutual. I came to this Forum to learn, and I am grateful for some of the sources you have provided on this thread and others.

Your points above are valid. Only time will tell as to how the Yang gradings work out.... I wish them well.
 

dmax999

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And additionally, push hands, applications and Qigong are part of the Chen curriculum. I have still seen nor heard no mention that it was part of the Yang family's curriculum. But I am very much hoping that it is.

http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/classes/
8PM Monday Seattle
6PM Tuesdays Redmond
Push hands training, right from Yang family web site.
It could mean a whole range of stuff.

I didn't notice any king of push hands/applications requirements for their rankings, which is my concern about them.
 

East Winds

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Xue Sheng,

The Yang Family certainly teach Push Hands and weapons forms as part of their curriculum. Whether or not that is also part of their grading system, I could not say. I think it would be hard to imagine that it was not, certainly at least at the higher levels.

I have worked with both Liming Yue and Wang Hijun and have nothing but the greatest respect for their high level teaching. I have also worked with indoor students of Chen Xiaowang and love Chen style. Unfortunatley I still have so much to learn of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan that I fear I will never be able to go back to Chen style.

I personally do not like grading systems in Taijiquan but unfortunately I think they are here to stay. Grading systems seem to work well in many other MA systems, and I will do my best to see that the CMA's do not adopt them as standard. Unfortunately, like the invasion of the New Agers I think it will be a losing battle.

Very best wishes
 

Xue Sheng

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http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/classes/
8PM Monday Seattle
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Push hands training, right from Yang family web site.
It could mean a whole range of stuff.

I didn't notice any king of push hands/applications requirements for their rankings, which is my concern about them.

Thanks. I will have to check but I have heard that the push hands training with the Yang family is extra, meaning cost more. But not training with them I would not know this for a fact.

Xue Sheng,

The Yang Family certainly teach Push Hands and weapons forms as part of their curriculum. Whether or not that is also part of their grading system, I could not say. I think it would be hard to imagine that it was not, certainly at least at the higher levels.

I have worked with both Liming Yue and Wang Hijun and have nothing but the greatest respect for their high level teaching. I have also worked with indoor students of Chen Xiaowang and love Chen style. Unfortunatley I still have so much to learn of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan that I fear I will never be able to go back to Chen style.

I personally do not like grading systems in Taijiquan but unfortunately I think they are here to stay. Grading systems seem to work well in many other MA systems, and I will do my best to see that the CMA's do not adopt them as standard. Unfortunately, like the invasion of the New Agers I think it will be a losing battle.

Very best wishes

Does it cost more to learn push hands, is it extra, is it done as private lessons or is it included as a regular part of their curriculum for all?

Being rather short of time and not wanting to get into a rant right now all I will say is I have found that Chen Zhenglei does not use a ranking system such as the Yang family uses nor does he use the Wushu system. But if a school he is affiliated with wants to use it he has no problem with it. And if you are om Mainland China the government is big on thier Wushu system

Also I really need to address this statement

Grading systems seem to work well in many other MA systems,

Because I fully believe that they use to but today they are harming a lot of Martial Arts systems. And a lot of this comes from my very first exposure to a Ranking system over 30 years ago in Jujitsu that I judge all other systems by today and so far very few can compare today. It is this focus on "Time in training" and "written tests" that concerns me greatly and the complete lack of emphasis on sparing and application.
 

East Winds

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Xue Sheng,

"As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business".

I would have more sympathy for that statement if I could attend a seminar by Chen Xiaowang or Chen Zhenlei seminar free of charge or if I could train at Chen village for free. I do not know of a Family Taijiquan system that is not a business and to suggest the Yang family of being the only one is unfair.

I think that grading will unfortunately become more and more common and I also think there will be more and more pressure applied to traditional family's by the Chines Wushu establishment to fall into line. Perhaps the Yangs could forsee this and introduced a grading system before they were "invited" to do so. There have already been suggestions in the UK that Taiji schools should come under the Wushu banner. I do not use gradings in my school and have no intentions of doing so in the future.

Very best wishes
 

Xue Sheng

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Xue Sheng,

"As for what the Yang's do that is their business and frankly I believe it is becoming exactly that to them. "A business".

I would have more sympathy for that statement if I could attend a seminar by Chen Xiaowang or Chen Zhenlei seminar free of charge or if I could train at Chen village for free. I do not know of a Family Taijiquan system that is not a business and to suggest the Yang family of being the only one is unfair.

I think that grading will unfortunately become more and more common and I also think there will be more and more pressure applied to traditional family's by the Chines Wushu establishment to fall into line. Perhaps the Yangs could forsee this and introduced a grading system before they were "invited" to do so. There have already been suggestions in the UK that Taiji schools should come under the Wushu banner. I do not use gradings in my school and have no intentions of doing so in the future.

Very best wishes

I did not mean to say that it was not a business to the Chen, Wu, Hao, Sun, or Dong families etc. Let’s just say I trust the Chen family more than the Yang family and leave it at that.

And I will stop here because I really don't want an argument a rant or to give the admins any extra work.
 
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