New Yang Rank System

dmax999

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I have 2 points to make on this subject.

Point 1:
Splintering can harm. Being a computer guy, I like Linux. It is superior to windows, but because you have about 100 different distributions that each work a little different, you have trouble getting things to work across them all or getting help for your specific version. Your system is better, but lacking in other ways because of the splintering. I believe the Yang family is attempting to stop that a bit. They may be having trouble teacing because people coming to their seminars are so far off while still claiming to do Yang style.

Point 2:
They seem to be lacking applications. They are not admiting to the fighting set, not doing push hands, not doing applications. This is a martial art, not a dance school. I probably would agree with them a lot more if they were training martial artists and not coreographing dancers.

It will probably help in the long run, but they probably need to have two sets of ranks. One for foms and one for fighters. I realize most go to Tai Chi for non-fighting reasons, but Tai Chi's strength is in its fighting and they need to embrace that more.
 

oxy

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I have 2 points to make on this subject.

Point 1:
Splintering can harm. Being a computer guy, I like Linux. It is superior to windows, but because you have about 100 different distributions that each work a little different, you have trouble getting things to work across them all or getting help for your specific version. Your system is better, but lacking in other ways because of the splintering. I believe the Yang family is attempting to stop that a bit. They may be having trouble teacing because people coming to their seminars are so far off while still claiming to do Yang style.

Point 2:
They seem to be lacking applications. They are not admiting to the fighting set, not doing push hands, not doing applications. This is a martial art, not a dance school. I probably would agree with them a lot more if they were training martial artists and not coreographing dancers.

It will probably help in the long run, but they probably need to have two sets of ranks. One for foms and one for fighters. I realize most go to Tai Chi for non-fighting reasons, but Tai Chi's strength is in its fighting and they need to embrace that more.

IANATCP, of course.

But strictly speaking, they are only for specifications testing - not teaching/learning.

Maybe the committee or whatever that decided this thing was assuming that the students who were taught applications and push hands etc properly would do the forms much more correctly than those who weren't. And since everyone here seems to be able to pick out who amongst Tai Chi students were taught proper applications etc, I'm sure the committee/whatever assumed they could pick them out too.

Your first point (a very good one) about forking in Linux OSes can actually be a factor in why applications can't be properly tested [yet]. If there is so much variation in the forms already, I can only assume that there are more differences in application theory vary much more than forms. In light of this, it would make more sense to wait for a standardised form to propagate itself back fully into the community before finally standardising applications.

The bigger problem I think is the testing of moral/martial code. It simply cannot tell the difference between someone who actually adhere to it from someone who just memorises the answers. Same thing happened to the civil examination system of Imperial China. People just started rote-memorising other people's essays on Confucian ethics but are as corrupt as the worst in the rest of the country. Needless to say, many dynasties degenerated into civil war due to this. Of course, there are many other examples around the world which shows it is impossible to make any moral/ethics tests useful in anyway.
 

marlon

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. I have also incidentally worked with Katy Cheng (CMC's daughter) when she came over to Scotland. I would hardly have done that if I disrespected the system.

Very best wishes[/quote]


How was the experience? It is my understanding that cmc practitioners also learn the 103 form.

Respectfully,
Marlon
 

SifuPhil

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As for my 2 centavos here...

1. Just look at the rest of the martial arts world and see what has often happened with the grading and "belting" of students.

2. If taijiquan is indeed based upon Taoist principles, I find it hilarious that they are attempting to impose an artificial order upon that which is meant to be natural.

But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not involved with their style; I do what I do apart from their labels, so as long as it never hinders me from pursuing my art, I wish them well.
 
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grydth

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. I have also incidentally worked with Katy Cheng (CMC's daughter) when she came over to Scotland. I would hardly have done that if I disrespected the system.

Very best wishes


How was the experience? It is my understanding that cmc practitioners also learn the 103 form.

Respectfully,
Marlon[/quote]

At the risk of performing, "Hijack Own Thread", a secret CMC form:), I would like to hear East Winds' tale of working with CMC's daughter as well.

Marlon - you often have some interesting views on Chinese arts - any further thoughts on the new Yang system?

East Winds - I sense some internal inconsistency in your position. If your theory as to why the new rank/uniform system was instituted is correct, how can it possibly be "sterile" to discuss the results if the system is not compulsory? Indeed, if it is not, won't this result in yet more Yang divisions? If it is not, what good can it bring?
 
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grydth

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As for my 2 centavos here...

1. Just look at the rest of the martial arts world and see what has often happened with the grading and "belting" of students.

2. If taijiquan is indeed based upon Taoist principles, I find it hilarious that they are attempting to impose an artificial order upon that which is meant to be natural.

But as was mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm not involved with their style; I do what I do apart from their labels, so as long as it never hinders me from pursuing my art, I wish them well.

I believe you addressed this point in the conclusion of your book, Tai Chi For Seniors, specifically in the section entitled, "So When Do I Get My Black Belt?"

My compliments on your work, which our group has found most useful.
 

marlon

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[.

Marlon - you often have some interesting views on Chinese arts - any further thoughts on the new Yang system?




I assume you mean the ranking system. Please bear in mind i am a newbie in tai chi and an outsider. It seems a bit tacky to mean the rank structure and from reading it it is not very clear what you need to score 6.5 or whatever. From my understanding of taiji it does not fit. however, as many people have been using the /Yang family name to make money i see this as an attempt to control thier family style and earn some money from it. I see nothing wrong with earning money but this may backfire on them because it seems to be going to far. BTW do you know you can buy yourself into the Yang family now. it is my understanding that all certified instructors pay a fee (one time or yearly i am not sure) and are called part of the Yang family. it is strange and i think it will not work. I hope for the Yang family that it does not burn them. The knowledge is out there and has been for a long time and skill level has always been the yard stick. most people want to learn taiji and are less concerned with what family it is. People will just teach and not call it Yang style and it will not matter so much to the students as long as they learn effective taiji. also, i think Chen style is beginning a big push into main stream taiji and because of the look of it more martially minded beginners will gravitate towards it and Yang style could suffer in the number of its new practitioners. Those who study it now and know it as an effective MA will not necessarily be disturbed but perhaps this is motivating the yang family as well to be better organized to handle a new level competition for students

Respectfully,
Marlon
 
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grydth

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Interesting that someone else also perceives an aggressive push by Chen style in the market place. I had first noted some roughly worded articles in what I see as marginal publications...... this month in Tai Chi magazine there is a very impressive interview with Chen Master Chen Zhenglei. An impressive read, and educational whatever one's style may be.

I wonder if the Yang actions are in response to hearing the Chen foot steps...
 

East Winds

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For you guys who think the Yang's are doing something unusual or unethical with their grading system, have a look at this link

http://www.taichicentre.com/grading2007.php

grydth,

"I wonder if the Yang actions are in response to hearing the Chen footsteps"

Looks like the Yangs are are in the lead and its the Chens who are following? :rofl:

Very best wishes
 

marlon

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Just to be clear. i do not think that the Yang's are doing anything unusual or unethical in the martial arts world at all.

respectfully,
Marlon
 
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grydth

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For you guys who think the Yang's are doing something unusual or unethical with their grading system, have a look at this link

http://www.taichicentre.com/grading2007.php

grydth,

"I wonder if the Yang actions are in response to hearing the Chen footsteps"

Looks like the Yangs are are in the lead and its the Chens who are following? :rofl:

Very best wishes

I must say that "unethical" is not a term I used....... I think "unusual" could be supported given the Yang Family's own history alone.

The link appears to be to grading for Wushu practitoners. While hosted at a Chen Center, this does not appear to be Chen grading. Even while you appear mistaken on this point, the Wushu gradings do lend you some support in that Yang is not alone in introducing gradings.

I hope nobody is taking offense at this thread..... On this Forum, we genuinely can differ without taking things personally, engaging in out of control rants or talking down an entire system. Whatever one may think of gradings alone, both traditional Yang and Chen Styles are wonderful systems deserving of our respect.
 

SifuPhil

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I believe you addressed this point in the conclusion of your book, Tai Chi For Seniors, specifically in the section entitled, "So When Do I Get My Black Belt?"

My compliments on your work, which our group has found most useful.
Thank you, Grydth - it's always nice to know someone has gotten some use from the book.

grydth said:
Whatever one may think of gradings alone, both traditional Yang and Chen Styles are wonderful systems deserving of our respect.
Very true. As one who might be considered a "gray beard" in the MA world, I've seen a few proposed ranking systems appear, seemingly out of nowhere. Whether they take hold or not seems to depend upon the sincerity and intent of the founders.

I think it's always well to remember that a grade, any grade, is just a marker on the side of the road - if you're constantly striving to become better at your chosen style, the marker will soon be in the distant past. That's when you realize that it wasn't the marker itself that was important - just the point of reference it afforded.
 

East Winds

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I thought my little "smiley" at the end of my post would have indicated that I was not posting too serious a reply or that I had been upset by previous posters!!!!!

Irrespective of being a "Wushu" grading, this is a well established Chen school who regularly host Chen Xiaowang seminars, taking students to a grading, presumably conducted by Chen stylists. That's all I was trying to say.

As Sifu phil says, these are only markers on a journey which no one is forced to undertake if they do not wish. My teacher says, "When you are climbing the mountain, don't look up to see how far you still have to go. Look back and see how far you have come".

Very best wishes
 

Xue Sheng

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IAs Sifu phil says, these are only markers on a journey which no one is forced to undertake if they do not wish. My teacher says, "When you are climbing the mountain, don't look up to see how far you still have to go. Look back and see how far you have come".

Actually speaking strictly form an Internal CMA stand point

"Focus on where you are"

If you are simply looking a taiji as nothing other than Taiji what is the big deal if you are training Yang, CMC or Chen.

If you are looking at it from a purely commercial stand point it appears that the Yang family is way in front on that one.

I am a long time Yang style practitioner but I will say I have always liked Chen better. I have been lucky enough to have a chance to talk to a Chen family member and I liked his attitude about Taiji better than that I read from the Yang family. However it is possible that if I talked to a member of the Yang family I could change my mind.

Following is a general response to all posters

As for CMC, the absolute only problem I have with the style is the continued claim that it is Yang style or CMC Yang style.

CMC is a great style, I rather like it, but it is no more Yang than Yang is Chen.
 

East Winds

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At the risk of starting a war :shrug: her is a quote I saw on another board :-

"Chen Man-ching was the man who gave so much to the Yang style by taking out so much of the art"

Not my quote, merely quoting someone else
icon11.gif


Very best wishes
 
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grydth

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I thought my little "smiley" at the end of my post would have indicated that I was not posting too serious a reply or that I had been upset by previous posters!!!!!

Irrespective of being a "Wushu" grading, this is a well established Chen school who regularly host Chen Xiaowang seminars, taking students to a grading, presumably conducted by Chen stylists. That's all I was trying to say.

As Sifu phil says, these are only markers on a journey which no one is forced to undertake if they do not wish. My teacher says, "When you are climbing the mountain, don't look up to see how far you still have to go. Look back and see how far you have come".

Very best wishes

I would respectfully question if a Wushu grading would be, "presumably conducted by Chen stylists." I have a close friend who's a Wushu stylist, and watching him do forms nicely illustrates Wushu as being a mix of several traditional family styles.

Yet, Wushu is separate and distinct, with its own authority and Masters.

I have not read of Chen using a grading system, and I do not understand how they could grade promotions for a style not their own.

So...I can't see how a Chen stylist could do the gradings, even if the event is held in a Chen facility.

My personal knowledge on this is hardly definitive.... so if you can follow up on this event, and Chen Masters do indeed participate, that would be news, indeed.
 
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grydth

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At the risk of starting a war :shrug: her is a quote I saw on another board :-

"Chen Man-ching was the man who gave so much to the Yang style by taking out so much of the art"

Not my quote, merely quoting someone else
icon11.gif


Very best wishes

An excellent topic to discuss - but honestly not here, it deserves its own thread.

If you want to start a new thread and defend the quote, I'll happily - and respectfully - defend CMC.

But I think "war" is too harsh, how about just a:whip1:

:):):)
 

Xue Sheng

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To Chen family grading/ranking/Wushu ranking

The Chen family has no such grading system.

They do not have belts or time requirements or anything even remotely close to what the Yang family has put into place.

And as far as I know neither does Sun, Hao, Wu, nor Zhaobao. But I could be wrong about Sun, Hao and Wu. I do not know as much about them but I have not seen any ranking system associated with them.
 

dmax999

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For the last couple of years the Yang family has been going with the attitude of "If you didn't learn it from us, its not traditional Yang Family style" I see the grading as just a continuation of that. Either jump aboard or be prepaired to have distinguished experts claim you do not perform any specific style of Tai Chi. Can you be a Catholic and not recognize the Pope as your spiritual leader, same thing they are going for.

I expect in the future you will have to be ranked by the Yang family to participate in Tai Chi competitions that involve them. The sad part is the best people in Tai Chi will probably ignore them and make winning one of those competitions worthless.

I wish them luck, and if things go good for them and they pursue it the right way we may be lucky and be able to tell a bunch of tree hugging yoga Tai Chi wannabees that they don't do Tai Chi and its something else. I don't really expect it to happen, but it might be nice to see. From what I read from them though they will embrace those individuals and then maybe the rest of us can then get on with the real Tai Chi. We will just have to wait and see how it goes.
 

Steel Tiger

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I wish them luck, and if things go good for them and they pursue it the right way we may be lucky and be able to tell a bunch of tree hugging yoga Tai Chi wannabees that they don't do Tai Chi and its something else. I don't really expect it to happen, but it might be nice to see. From what I read from them though they will embrace those individuals and then maybe the rest of us can then get on with the real Tai Chi. We will just have to wait and see how it goes.

Ah yes! That most sublime of silver linings, telling new age wankers to wake up and stop annoying everyone else. Sadly I don't really expect it to happen either. It would be very strange indeed if the tree-hungers were the only ones doing real Yang taiji wouldn't it?
 
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