New anti Sine Wave pattern deliveries on Youtube

Earl Weiss

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Here is another pre knee spring/Sine Wave representation.

His walking stance is lower than what you would normally see in ITF. His Round kicks are too squared for my liking but this varies between individuals. There can be such a thing as too upright!

It seems most US splinter groups did not adopt Sine Wave.

Interesting performance. _ see how he leans as part of move #1. This is something I saw in progeny of Han Cha Kyo. Never understood it. Asked the General's son about it since I knew he trained under GM Han for a time. he was incredulous. sadly GM Han died before I could ask about it. But I had a chance to ask GM Nam if he knew anything about this variation and he said "That's Han Cha Kyo's technique. " so it seems it was something GM Han did to make it his own. Sadly, his progeny had no idea that is what they were doing. I would no be surprised if this person had strong CDK roots.
 
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Perhaps therein lies the difference. and explains why we are talking past each other. Problem being "Cocking" or rearward motion of the hip and then moving it forward. This is not needed if the position prior to the punch is half face. The hip is already back and only needs to move forward to full face. Now, if the Hips are full facing, the SW motion is a slight relax / down. then up and down to the beginning of the motion. During - not sperate from or before or after- the initial relax / down and then up he hip moves slightly rearward and from the peak to the final position coordinated with the extension of the arm the hip moves forward.

I don't agree that the rear wood motion in L stance constitutes a hip twist but even if you would argue that it does, that only proves that (1) does not mean what you think it does, because it does not apply to walking stance reverse punch. and (1) was a general principle.

Choi in fact guarantees that it does not mean that, since he does not want the body twisted when raising and lowering in walking stance, as he told the student.
 

Earl Weiss

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I don't agree that the rear wood motion in L stance constitutes a hip twist but even if you would argue that it does, that only proves that (1) does not mean what you think it does, because it does not apply to walking stance reverse punch. and (1) was a general principle.

Choi in fact guarantees that it does not mean that, since he does not want the body twisted when raising and lowering in walking stance, as he told the student.
You misstate what I said. I did not state "rear wood motion in L stance constitutes a hip twist " I said if you are in a half facing stance which could be L or walking stance and you are going to be doing a rear hand punch then the hip moving forward from half to full face is the hip twist. Now, if you think that every punch irrespective of the starting hip position required some reward and then forward motion of the hip and this was eliminated I think what you are seeing was elimination of something that was from previous systems and carried over into General Choi's system but was never what he intended or taught.
So the first problem is to define what you mean by the allegedly eliminated "Hip Twist" Was that always a required rearward (Cocking) and then forward motion of the hip irrespective of initial hip position?
 
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Interesting performance. _ see how he leans as part of move #1. This is something I saw in progeny of Han Cha Kyo. Never understood it. Asked the General's son about it since I knew he trained under GM Han for a time. he was incredulous. sadly GM Han died before I could ask about it. But I had a chance to ask GM Nam if he knew anything about this variation and he said "That's Han Cha Kyo's technique. " so it seems it was something GM Han did to make it his own. Sadly, his progeny had no idea that is what they were doing. I would no be surprised if this person had strong CDK roots.

I don't know what you are referring to but I would say that particular Chang Hon of-shoot is about as far removed from the ITF as I've seen, including 70s ITF. To me he is doing Karate rythm with TKD forms.

This pattern delivery still has an overall TKD flavor to it, even though a lay person might not see it.

 
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So the first problem is to define what you mean by the allegedly eliminated "Hip Twist" Was that always a required rearward (Cocking) and then forward motion of the hip irrespective of initial hip position?


I'm referring to hip twist at point of impact. Whether (3) was part and parcel of the original system doesn't make your or me anymore right in this discussion.

What I tried conveying is that you don't hip twist cocking a strike, especially not if you intend to hip twist on impact. It would result in a very jerky rhythm that bares no resemblance to Sine Wave.

Merely turning slightly back (cocking) and then forward does not render the strike a hip twist. You can throw a push punch from that same sequence of moves.

You will note that jerking the hip is absent from the SW parameters, but is present in the general attack technique parameters.
 

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I could be a little critical of the stance work (I feel that is systemic differences). But those kicks are legit.
 

Earl Weiss

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This pattern delivery still has an overall TKD flavor to it, even though a lay person might not see it.

[
I never notice before but Yul Guk move #1 he steps with the wrong - right foot and it should be the left foot!
 
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I never notice before but Yul Guk move #1 he steps with the wrong - right foot and it should be the left foot!

I notice in these 70s clip that power is greater but control is neglected. There are no side kick holdouts, kicking form isn't as disciplined post kick, rechambers are sloppier. This goes hand in hand with a power focus. You normally need to make a decision between form and power. If you commit everything to the first strike, your body is not in position to follow it up.

My instructor is very old school and wants full commitment into strikes and does not care about combinations. He would just line us up to blast turning punches, dolyo chagis and back kicks as hard as we can on kicking shields.

The one thing I didn't get from ITF that I was warned beforehand about is the throws.

I didn't expect judo classes but we never covered throws at all, which was a bummer. I know why and it's the same reason BJJ schools avoid them and that's due to no break fall training and basketball surfaces... So all we is do joint manipulation and takedowns but no throws.
 

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Language is imperfect. I have had students question something I said and realized how what I said was misinterpreted. Sometimes I was able to refine the language. Sometimes it's nearly impossible to avoid any misinterpretation. At some IICs General Choi would say something and I did not understand the point. I would ask other seniors and sometimes get an explanation and sometimes not. Other times as the questions and discussions continued I was able to grasp the point he was making. I was not alone in this and quite frankly I have experienced this with other instructors as well.
Both of my first instructors in my primary art loved to tell stories of students who - a few years in - suddenly understood something they'd been told for years. Sometimes, the students can only absorb a portion of what's taught, and the rest has to be worked out later.
 

gpseymour

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There is no mention of hip twist in his Sine Wave parameters.

It states:

"1. turn the hip and abdomen in the same direction as the attacking tool. "

That means face the target with your hip and abdomen pointing towards the target. (it has to mean the the since the SW resource come next). You can't hip twist before the SW motion has started.

2. The heel of the rear foot should be raised sightly off the ground at the beginning of the motion and placed firmly on the ground at the moment of impact in all cases

3. Raise the body sightly at the beginning of the motion, and lower it at the moment of impact

Nowhere does he mention a hip twist in his own parameters.
You're making a strong assertion that 1 comes before 2. But 2 and 3 are clearly simultaneous, so it seems likely the three are all meant to overlap.
 

gpseymour

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That has nothing to do with anything. It was in response to the fact that Weiss is right and I'm wrong because he has more experience, according to your logic
You don't really read to understand, do you? You just look for something to argue about, to deflect from the possibility of having to admit there's a point to the other argument.
 

gpseymour

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You wrote that Jong Soo Park showed his CDK roots, agreeing that he did not in fact display "spring style" in the clip, or did you mean he displayed both? Very curious that he would still show roots from something he did 10-15 years ago....

I know that Park later returned but that's irrelevant to the point.
If you think someone's roots vanish over a decade or so, you're mistaken. I still show my Judo roots (first grappling I trained in), and I haven't trained in Judo in 30 years.
 
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You're making a strong assertion that 1 comes before 2. But 2 and 3 are clearly simultaneous, so it seems likely the three are all meant to overlap.

Why are you butting into this? You said that you don't even understand what SW is
 

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No, I hold a rank passed intermediate and have 6 years of training, of which 4 are in the dojang

Oh wow, I am singularly unimpressed.

You aren't actually much past a beginner, four years under an instructor simply isn't long enough to build up the base of knowledge that would entitle you to criticise senior instructors. There is nothing, of course, that entitled you to be rude, obnoxious and arrogant nor to make personal attacks which are not allowed on here.

For a short while it was amusing watching you trying to justify your posts, much like watching a drunk staggering up an icy slope but it becomes tedious when it's clear that the drunk is whinging and full of feacal matter. The chaps here are far more polite than I and put up with more nonsense than most posters on other sites do but I'm a grumpy old woman who will quite happily tell you that your manner is embarrassing. It doesn't matter whether you are correct about sine wave or not, the way you address people is bang out of order, you don't discuss you harangue and belittle. It's getting you nowhere, unless you count bumping up your post count.
Now run along and play nicely.
 
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